Hedman

[forumname]

See I disagree about Crosby being any better with other linemates. I think it's already been proven that he wouldn't be better with stars on his wings. He wants the puck, he controls everything. Just like Karlsson. These guys make others better, they don't get inflated points by playing with others.

This is just fundamentally wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion, it is just wrong logistically. Obviously Crosby would score more points with 2 NHL stars on his wings than he would with 2 drunk 75 year old women. To say linemates don't matter is senseless.

[fungchen3]

to answer your question, doughty.

In fantasy scoring??

[Big Ev]

This is just fundamentally wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion, it is just wrong logistically. Obviously Crosby would score more points with 2 NHL stars on his wings than he would with 2 drunk 75 year old women. To say linemates don't matter is senseless.

i don't think you understand at all. We have seen crosby when he has stars on his wing and he is never great. Hell when they got Neal they didn't put him with crosby, they put him with Malkin.

and crosby's stats are always way better when malkin is out the lineup.

There is only one puck on the ice and only so many points you can get.

It's like when a guy gets traded to a team to play with a star and they assume his points will magically shoot up from what he did before.

s no linemates aren't as big of a deal as you think when you're talking about the best of the best on the league.

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In fantasy scoring??

No as I said his situation isn't good.for fantasy I'd still say keith is the guy Hedman has to dethrone.

[forumname]

i don't think you understand at all. We have seen crosby when he has stars on his wing and he is never great. Hell when they got Neal they didn't put him with crosby, they put him with Malkin.

and crosby's stats are always way better when malkin is out the lineup.

There is only one puck on the ice and only so many points you can get.

It's like when a guy gets traded to a team to play with a star and they assume his points will magically shoot up from what he did before.

s no linemates aren't as big of a deal as you think when you're talking about the best of the best on the league.

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Linemate chemistry is one factor, linemate skill is another. To say one of those doesn't matter at all makes me think you're the one who doesn't understand.

Are you honestly saying that Crosby (or your king, Karlsson) will produce the same # of points regardless of who they play with? You can't seriously believe that.

Yes, they make players around them better, and no, sticking them with an anonymous cast of all stars may not lead to instantly improved production, but saying linemate skill is irrelevant makes no sense.

[MarmotKing]

and I'll disagree with you. If you put the "right" stars with Crosby, he gains points. It has to be the right type of complimentary player. Obviously, as you say Crosby controls the play, but if a smart complimentary player were to be found, Crosby could hit for many more points. Case in point, Gretzky and Kurri, Hull and Oates, all outstanding players, but put them together and it's magic. My $0.05

Hall and Oates!! Classic! Maybe it's because it's late, but I laughed so hard when I read that.

As for the discussion, I still think Karlsson is the King in points only. A Crosby-type on defence that makes thing happen. Controls the play too.

I really love Hedman and wishes he finishes second in points this year. I acquired him this summer, really cheap too. I swapped a 6th for him and a 10th in my league bellow. He might make me look like a genious by season's end.

[Big Ev]

Linemate chemistry is one factor, linemate skill is another. To say one of those doesn't matter at all makes me think you're the one who doesn't understand.

Are you honestly saying that Crosby (or your king, Karlsson) will produce the same # of points regardless of who they play with? You can't seriously believe that.

Yes, they make players around them better, and no, sticking them with an anonymous cast of all stars may not lead to instantly improved production, but saying linemate skill is irrelevant makes no sense.

i do believe it. if you put A guy like doughty beside Karlsson I bet Karlsson finishes with less points.

this is the NHL, they're playing with skilled players no matter who they are. I think a guy like getzlaf would put up less points without Perry but I don't think the same applies for generational talents.

[ShawneePanthers]

Big Ev, we know you love Karlsson (too much). But what are your thoughts on Adam Larsson. Next Hedman or next Chris Phillips?

[fungchen3]

Well, here's what's interesting about Karlsson. In both of his 70+ point season, he's factored in on exactly 32% of the goals the Senators scored.

2013-14:
Karlsson = 74 points
Senators = 229 goals scored
Ducks = 263 goals scored
Karlsson on Ducks (factoring in 32% of goals scored) = 84 points

2011-12:
Karlsson = 78 points
Senators = 243 goals scored
Penguins = 273 goals scored
Karlsson on Pens (factoring in 32% of goals scored) = 87 points

And, let's keep in mind that the Ducks and Pens did not have the benefit of having Karlsson on their team, which would have produced even more goals scored. Let's take a look...

In 2013-14, the Ducks highest scoring defenseman was Cam Fowler with 36 points. Karlsson outscored him by 38 points. For arguments sake, let's say Karlsson's offensive contributions added only 12 more goals to the Ducks totals, they would have scored 275 goals and Karlsson would have scored 88 points (at his same 32% pace).

In 2011-12, Kris Letang lead the Pens with 36 points from the blue line. Karlsson scored 78 - a difference of 42 points. Say Karlsson added 14 goals to the Pens that year (again, conservative projection), the Pens would have scored 287 goals and Karlsson would have registered 92 points (@32%).

And these are modest increase examples. There's no doubt Karlsson would score more with a higher-octane offense. 88 and 92 points respectively... if not more. Karlsson will always contribute a healthy % of his team's offense because he is a creator and PP architect. The better the team, the more goals, the more points Karlsson gets.

[mister_mcgoo]

Can't believe I'm disagreeing with fung and agreeing with Ev, be forewarned, this may be a sign of the apocalypse

The problem with that extrapolation is that you assume that his stats would increase linearly with better teammates. But the flipside of it is as Ev notes, that Karlsson DRIVES the play, he's the guy that makes things happen, he runs the show. Sometimes when you put too many guys on the same line who are used to running the show themselves it backfires. We see this in the Olympics all the time, the best lines usually turn out to be a combination of types of players. On an another team sure Karlsson could probably scored ppg but part of the benefit he has now is that he doesn't just make their offence better, he IS their offence.

[fungchen3]

Karlsson DRIVES the play, he's the guy that makes things happen, he runs the show. Sometimes when you put too many guys on the same line who are used to running the show themselves it backfires. We see this in the Olympics all the time, the best lines usually turn out to be a combination of types of players. On an another team sure Karlsson could probably scored ppg but part of the benefit he has now is that he doesn't just make their offence better, he IS their offence.

This is legit. But I never look at specialty tournaments when projecting NHL comparisons. These tournaments are borderline All-Star games, full of the elite of the elite. That sways the numbers IMO. An example the other way is Drew Doughty - he was a monster offensively in the Olympics but back home he's a 38-45 point defenseman on the Kings, in Sutter's system.

A player like Karlsson will always factor in a large % of points. He plays the full PP and the play runs through him. I don't see how it's realistic to assume that Karlsson goes to the Ducks, runs their PP and gets to play with two of the Top-10 scorers on the planet 5-on-5 and doesn't see a boost in stats (or factor into 32% of their points.) I do understand the point that there will be "more hands in the pot" with better players, but I don't see Karlsson getting cut out of that loop - he's just too good and logs too much time (25+ minutes on avg.)

And, another dynamic we're totally glossing over is the opportunity for Karlsson to be a main recipient, as opposed to just lead generator. Could you imagine players like Crosby and Getzlaf looking for Karlsson and feeding him gifts? Outside of Spezza (a little), Karlsson has never had the chance to benefit from a world-class talent who can return the favor. Alfredsson was at the end and Ryan/Turris are just not on the same planet as the heavies.

This is a good subject to dig into a bit deeper - perhaps another thread? And it's a shame we'll probably never get to see Karlsson belly up to the table with the likes of Crosby or Getzlaf, but it would be great. Until then, we'll never know for certain, but I think Karlsson would see a boost (although not enormous).

Now... back to Hedman. I think he will end up among the elite at his position because of the same reason I think Karlsson would score even more with better talent. Stamkos finishes plays as well as anyone in the world. Hedman's hard work has a better chance resulting in red lights because Stamkos delivers. Tonight Hedman got 3 assists on Stamkos goals. I'm going to say 2 of the goals he scored tonight, 70-75% of NHL forwards fail on the same attempts. Boom - right there are 2 more apples for Hedman.

[dodospice]

It's really hard to believe Hedman is only 23 years old still (going on 24), he's been around a long time! I'm glad to see he finally busted out last year, and is looking like he's arrived in the NHL! A guy with his size, and his skill set are almost unmatched. I love me some Hedman.

[lektrix]

What are the point projections for Hedman now after the first 2 games?? 60-65? 70+? Trying to see what he is worth......a 2nd round draft pick (i.e. 80pt forward)??

[MJ Flex]

Another satisfied Hedman owner here after trading him for E Kane straight up over the summer.

I understand that it's not a fair comparison since we have not yet seen E Kane's upside, but I much prefer riding on Hedman's ascent to fantasy superstardom than Kane's.

[gfhyde]

I had a trade offer out to the Hedman owner before last night's game. Half way through he rejected it. I tried like hell to get him everywhere I could over the summer too. No one budged. What a shame.