This Place Has Changed..........

[Dutch]

Dutch, we obviously share similar opinions here. The only thing I'll say about the above is - I'm not sure it has to be back to the "old days" (meaning the forums can't grow and evolve). But, I do think a little "back to the basics" could help a bit here.

I definitely think the forums are designed to incentivize post count, award collections and icon statuses. While a good-natured gesture, it makes solid feedback and thought-provoking posts an afterthought with a bunch of people. That's a problem, and one that could easily be addressed. Nuke the icons, the iron man heads, status labels and keep post count and Rep like 99% of the other message boards on the net. Not to mention, having little Robin, Bruce Lee, and various cartoon icons and nicknames next to all of our names, sort of make the forum look very "kiddish."

Let's get back to the down and dirty posting. Let's talk some hockey and take pride in offering the best advice, and thought-provoking content, as possible instead of collecting visual charms like we're playing Trivia Crack or Fruit Ninja.

Back in 08 and those years, we all proved our worth by actual contributions, not numbers and charms.

I understand that. I didn't mean that it needs to go back to how it was, but it would be nice if that "feeling" came back. Too many regulars are not here anymore, and it's hard to replace that obviously. But right now this "bar feeling" that I like to compare it too, feels more like a dirty old bar with nobody inside. Not sure if that made my thoughts more clear or more blurry lol.

[Atomic Wedgy]

Like I said - this place used to be a Mecca. I also think the over-policing has hurt. Going back to 08, 09, 10, 11, etc. it seemed like there were always "characters" and a few "trolls" who were usually handled by the regulars. It was like a bar atmosphere - nobody walks into "your bar" and gets the place messy without finding the door. Maybe the regulars failed (and I'll put myself in this group) in doing our job... so Dobber decided to go in a more strict direction. I'm not sure.

Everyone here used to speak up when someone was being an ass. That doesn't happen much anymore. So I think the regulars are indeed failing the site. Newer members are afraid to say something when a high post count veteran is being a complete dick. As a result, the people acting like asses begin to run riot. Add the fact that the forum is so much bigger now and you have a place going through some serious growing pains. These growing pains were the reason why the infraction system was implemented. For one, I think it was a very good move indeed. There has been a lot less need for infractions over the last 2 months.

I will say that I bet the new members that come here still quite appreciate what a great place it is. Its only the old members that are saying there is something wrong. I have traveled all over the world and what I am hearing here is something that I have heard a lot. This place isn't the same since the good ole days. Thailand is an especially good example of this. People today in Ko Phangan will say, you should have been here in 2004. It was much better then. People in 2004 were saying you should have been here in 1994. I was there in 1997 and folks were saying that it was much better in 1991. It never ends. Folks are always nostalgic for the times gone by. When in reality, maybe it is us and our perspective that has changed.

This brings us to today. We all need to chip in and make contributions for it to be as good as we think it should be. Don't let ******** be ********. Say something. It doesn't need to be accepted.

One last thing I will say.... I have been answering the same questions from new members for a long time. Should I trade reliable veteran X for long term prospect A and flash in the pan B? Sometimes it is tiring answering this same question year after year. This may also be contributing to the lack of quality responses from the regulars.

Either way, I think it was Steve that said... you get what you give. So, all the regulars need to give what they want to get out.

[Dobber]

MolsonX - I want to explain myself here. My response wasn't just to your original post, but to several posts you have submitted over the past couple of months that all built up into something that made my frustration seep over the sides. I hinted at it in an email to you, if you recall, when I said "I could have used your support in the forum today" and you replied that it was busy day, etc. But what I was really hinting at was "that thread was creating a negative tone in the forum that was feeding the trolls and I wish you didn't create a post that furthered their cause". In the ensuing weeks, there have been other "shitstorm" threads that were just filled with dynamite and all it needed was a match. And two or three times - once when the thread was off the first "new posts" page and I was just starting to thank god that it was finally dead - you made a post that threw in that match and brought the post back to life. I felt betrayed by you the first time, and each time you threw that match. Maybe my standard for you was higher because you were a writer.
Anyway, then I saw this thread. That you started. When you have my personal email and my full attention any time you want it. I still, I guess, consider you part of the team and our goals are alligned in that we grow the community into something special. So why this, and the other posts I refer to, had to happen in public when you could have sent an email, is beyond me. But I apologize. I should have been forthcoming with you to begin with rather than ignore what was bothering me. Then you would have known, prior to posting, how it would have made me feel. And it's entirely possible that I'm taking the three or four posts that I didn't like, and not knowing about 50 posts in which you were very positive. And if so, I'm sorry.


Post count talk - This really is nuts. Sure, post counts are fluffed. But not by 100% (as a couple of you seem to indicate), and the fluff is friendly dialogue and is part of conversations. Let's not scare away newcomers from posting a friendly "hi, how are you" by pressuring them into either saying "the percentage of player X's zone starts versus his points-per-game average blah blah blah" or nothing at all - is not helping the cause you're championing. What I'm saying is - if there were 5000 posts in a month before, and 4500 were quality and 500 were fluff, and today there are 10,000 quality and 2000 fluff - we still come out ahead, right? And lets not put pressure on newcomers to only post well thought out and well analyzed stuff. It's okay to just say "hello", or "I agree", or "yes". We're friends here, not snobs.


Excelsior, smoothfun and others - I hope my explanation to MolsonX helps explain to you and others my mindset with my original, sensitive, reply. Context helps for sure.


Shoeless makes good points too (other than advanced stats - not on board with that one ). I agree with them and have always felt that way, which is why I make a conscious effort to answer all newbie posts and anyone with a lowish post count



New users are on the increase. Threads are on the increase. Users have come and gone at the same rate as always


The old-time members drop off at the same rate now as always - Lanky, 93213, angus, Ballsakic, 87Flyer, Chinny, enfuego, hockeyislife - these are just some of the people who left in 2009 or 2010 or 2011 or 2012. And people will leave this year. It's not a trend - I know trends and I see all the data. And you'd be surprised at how many post a lot, leave for four years (!) and then return and post a lot again.
Big_dl posted 100 times a month back in 2007-2008 - but not much at all since March of 2008. And now he writes the Wild West. He never left the site, he just got too busy for the forum, or rather - he became less of an "apprentice" and more of a "master". And that's what happens when you hang out here so much for months and months. You learn stuff. And if you become an expert in something that you were once new at, do you need to still ask 100 questions per month? No. So of course people are going to roll back their forum participation over time.

[Lemmy]

Maybe the problem is guys like me, I follow this site regularly but would never tell anyone in my leagues about this site.

This is my secret advantage, I cant share that with the enemy. If I want to make a trade I do not need another GM in my league seeing this.

Could I be a little paranoid.

[smoothfun]

I'm reluctant to say too much because honestly I'm not "involved' enough here to
give an in depth response.

That said , no offense Dobber , I still feel that your response was out of line , especially
since you are the owner/operator of this site.
You suggest that the initial concerns should have been brought to you in private , yet you
in turn publically post here your issues with MolsonX. You can't have it both ways.

I hate being critizied but , at times if "the shoe fits , wear it".

We appreciate your defense of the site and it's present status and agree this has become
an amazing place for all fantasy sports enthusiasts but , nothing is perfect , not everyone
will be satisfied/happy here , for whatever reasons.

It's like Wall Mart compared to the local "get it here store" , you now have strength in #'s.
If one of us depart , 2 more are arriving!

The bar analogy was a good way of explaining the feelings many of us have and as said we
have to accept our part in allowing things to change without doing anything about it , or , for
our lack of involvement in the changes.

We aren't looking to blame people because we'd have to blame ourselves equally , that's obvious.
The thing is , things have changed , for better or worse , things have changed.
It's great that it has been pointed out and instead of being questioned in a negative way , the response
should be , what , if anything needs to be done about the changes.

So lets hope this "opens" the doors to some former users , to some new users , and things can continue
to evolve here.


POOL ON!

POOL ON!

[STLblues]

Thought I should reply as I first started regularly reading/posting in the forum this summer. I absolutely LOVE the forum and think its great. COD, Pen7, Dobber as well as many that have posted in this thread have been hugely responsive and helpful since day 1 for me. I guess I'm glad I wasn't around for these "glory days" many of you speak of. I can't regret what I never experienced. I will say Dobbers most recent post covers how I feel as a "newbie" member. The people in this post are literally some of my most favorite members by far, but as a collective thread the message indeed comes off a little "high brow". As if members like myself who are new and not fleet of pen are diluting your "good old forum". Many of you are Writers, mods, administrators etc. You guys/gals are the heart, soul and brains of this whole community! These discussions are necessary I'm sure, but let's keep it in the "board room" away from the plebes such as myself. I have zero desire/talent to be a writer or mod. My expectations out of a individual post are probably vastly different from those who provide them professionally. I'm glad this discussion is being made, but realize many of the newer members may just feel a little inadequate after reading this thread.


Humbly Yours,

The Peasant Surf Crowd.

(No hard feelings really, but a valid point I exaggerated a little to make you smile hopefully)

[doulos]

Righteous. Hang ten dude!

[Call of Doughty]

Please don't take away my "fluff" trophy, please! LOL

Blues, that's some high praise to be lumped in with Dobs/P7.

This remains a great place where I get my DAILY hockey fix (I've been lurking every day). Some of the older crew have upped and left, but no biggie, changes happen, and people move on. My post count has been stone cold lately, but teaching duties and daddy duties take me away from significant contributions here in Dobberville. When the bell rings in June, I can contribute more often. I for one, haven't noticed a decline in posts from advice seekers, but I do notice fewer Dobberites chiming in to help. The cockfighting that was relentless over the summer may have scared some away, but it seems to have mellowed out in the past 2-3 months. I'm happy with the way things are. It's all I've ever really known lol. Some advice I'd give .....
1) NO cockfighting
2) If you want to cockfight, buy a rooster.
3) Read Tequila's threads for the funny names if nothing else.
4) Help out the newbies with sound advice when you can.
5) ALWAYS contribute to my movie thread...
6) Take my thread advice with a grain of salt, it probably isn't very good.
7) Stand back and let McGoo, Ev and Dutch throw sand in each other's faces. Don't get involved.
8) Let Dobber make the changes he feels are necessary. It's his bleeping site.
9) Always rep a member for helping you out (good or bad is my motto)
10) Cobretti Rule: Fluff posts only in the summer.
11) Distribute Bieber icons to those who are complaining about the icons/rep symbols.
12) Be happy, funny and let things slide from time to time.

Happy 2015 all. Be good, productive citizens in Dobberville.
No cockfighting.
COD

[Dobber]

That said , no offense Dobber , I still feel that your response was out of line , especially
since you are the owner/operator of this site.
You suggest that the initial concerns should have been brought to you in private , yet you
in turn publically post here your issues with MolsonX. You can't have it both ways.

Just know that the decision to post it did not come easy. As you can see, it was posted at 3am and I sat on it in email form for over an hour, considering how I should do it. But it was your post and Excelsior's that made me realize that I needed to respond here for the sake of the community. Maybe it was the wrong decision, but please understand that it was one that was not made lightly. I certainly was not looking to have it both ways. I only want it one way - private. But it was respect for you and Excelsior, and MolsonX, that made me feel that this was the best way to handle it. So I copied it off the email and posted it here instead. I also felt that my post was long-winded, and I was afraid that it would be skimmed through and something would be taken out of context. And I think I was right. If you have a moment, please give it a second read and try to capture the tone I was trying to convey.

[Dobber]

Thought I should reply as I first started regularly reading/posting in the forum this summer. I absolutely LOVE the forum and think its great. COD, Pen7, Dobber as well as many that have posted in this thread have been hugely responsive and helpful since day 1 for me. I guess I'm glad I wasn't around for these "glory days" many of you speak of. I can't regret what I never experienced. I will say Dobbers most recent post covers how I feel as a "newbie" member. The people in this post are literally some of my most favorite members by far, but as a collective thread the message indeed comes off a little "high brow". As if members like myself who are new and not fleet of pen are diluting your "good old forum". Many of you are Writers, mods, administrators etc. You guys/gals are the heart, soul and brains of this whole community! These discussions are necessary I'm sure, but let's keep it in the "board room" away from the plebes such as myself. I have zero desire/talent to be a writer or mod. My expectations out of a individual post are probably vastly different from those who provide them professionally. I'm glad this discussion is being made, but realize many of the newer members may just feel a little inadequate after reading this thread.


Humbly Yours,

The Peasant Surf Crowd.

(No hard feelings really, but a valid point I exaggerated a little to make you smile hopefully)

Thank you. The newcomers are the ones I would like to hear from. All too often I hear from a four or five-year veteran of the site speaking on behalf of the newcomers

[Joe13]

As one of the newer members, I have to say that I absolutely love it. This site has been a great learning experience for me, and gives me a chance to share my knowledge with others. I agree with STLBlues that some members here, who's advice I highly value, are giving the feel that newer members are "ruining" the forum. When I ask a question, I'm hoping for some answers. I don't expect a long breakdown or a very thorough answer, but I'm happy if I do get one. If someone gives a one-word answer, I don't mind that, although I'd rather at least a sentence. I have a family, I have a job, but I always leave a little time out of my day to answer other people's questions. I feel it's the least I can do to return the favour when people answer my questions.

Also, one member who really made me feel welcome was Pengwin7. Thanks, P7! Thanks, Dobber! Thanks everyone here. Remember, fantasy sports first, life second! Or the other way around. Damn, I hope my wife doesn't see this.

[fungchen3]

some members here, who's advice I highly value, are giving the feel that newer members are "ruining" the forum.

Joe, you shouldn't feel that way. It's not a new vs. old issue, in terms of people. Everyone here was "new" at some point. Good people are good people. Smart and considerate posters are just that, regardless of new vs. old. That is completely irrelevant, at least to me.

[MXHockey]

First - just want to say there are no hard feelings on my end, and will briefly respond to a couple things.

MolsonX - I want to explain myself here. My response wasn't just to your original post, but to several posts you have submitted over the past couple of months that all built up into something that made my frustration seep over the sides. I hinted at it in an email to you, if you recall, when I said "I could have used your support in the forum today" and you replied that it was busy day, etc. But what I was really hinting at was "that thread was creating a negative tone in the forum that was feeding the trolls and I wish you didn't create a post that furthered their cause". In the ensuing weeks, there have been other "shitstorm" threads that were just filled with dynamite and all it needed was a match. And two or three times - once when the thread was off the first "new posts" page and I was just starting to thank god that it was finally dead - you made a post that threw in that match and brought the post back to life. I felt betrayed by you the first time, and each time you threw that match. Maybe my standard for you was higher because you were a writer.

Betrayal is an awkward word here Dobber. If you go through my posts and my received rep (from mods like Axe/Comish/AW) during that time, you will come across many examples that will highlight attempts I made to help bring peace to that situation, and where I supported the moderators and the fact they are volunteers that should be respected and appreciated for the work they do. In saying that, part of me could understand why guys like mcgoo/Dakk/Ev/dutch had a beef, and the odd time I did post something appreciating their perspective as well. Nothing wrong with having appreciation for both sides of an argument, even if the one side is only 15% right. I agree the Infraction Policy was a good decision, but like Excelsior alluded to - the edge some bring (as long as it didn't cross the line) is a good thing if kept in check. I think this is what fungchen is getting at as well in some way.

*And for the record in case anyone is tempted, this thread isn't a place to resume the Pre-Infraction Era War. That's said and done. I would hope a mod closes this thread if anyone goes down that path*

Your email to me "I could have used your support in the forum today" - I remember reading that late and thinking you were hoping I would have been on the forums to post that day and support the site somehow. I don't recall posting anything negative but maybe I did, and if so I apologize. Anyway, another classic example of how things can be unclear through written correspondence.

Anyway, then I saw this thread. That you started. When you have my personal email and my full attention any time you want it. I still, I guess, consider you part of the team and our goals are alligned in that we grow the community into something special. So why this, and the other posts I refer to, had to happen in public when you could have sent an email, is beyond me. But I apologize. I should have been forthcoming with you to begin with rather than ignore what was bothering me. Then you would have known, prior to posting, how it would have made me feel. And it's entirely possible that I'm taking the three or four posts that I didn't like, and not knowing about 50 posts in which you were very positive. And if so, I'm sorry.

I think every mod/writer/admin/forum member etc has their moments of being sarcastic or negative when posting here, so yes I do believe you're taking a few "negative" posts and focusing on them while ignoring the many positives and the entire body of work per say. That is why I took offense. But again, no hard feelings, and I apologize as well if I was negative at times and if this thread started with a 'negative vibe'. Feel free to email or PM me if you want to discuss more.

This site being great is pretty much a given, maybe I should have prefaced with that type of statement first before starting a thread like this to take the edge off. In saying that, this thread has fostered good feedback from members who given ideas for improvement and how to better an already good culture in ways that would benefit themselves and everyone. Some people, old and new said they are happy with how things are - some like fungchen, shoeless, Excelsior, smooth spoke up and said 'hey what about this and this' with the intent of being positive - I find the Quality vs Quantity debate and the feedback regarding icons/trophies etc interesting and there is merit there in that feedback. Again, nothing wrong with all points that were made to tweak the current state or maintain the status quo - all have value.

One last thing - thanks to newfcollins and guru I now realize why my favorite landing place on these forums (General Hockey Chat) seems slower at times - it's because more threads that were once in General Chat are now in sub-forums like prospects/team threads. I liked everything being in the one main forum - one place for all of the action - but can understand why all the sub-forums were made, even though I rarely visit them. A classic first world problem of a few extra searches and clicks - but hey, that's what we discuss here at times.

Thanks again to everyone who has chimed in, new and old members. Cheers.

[mister_mcgoo]

MolsonX - I want to explain myself here. My response wasn't just to your original post, but to several posts you have submitted over the past couple of months that all built up into something that made my frustration seep over the sides. I hinted at it in an email to you, if you recall, when I said "I could have used your support in the forum today" and you replied that it was busy day, etc. But what I was really hinting at was "that thread was creating a negative tone in the forum that was feeding the trolls and I wish you didn't create a post that furthered their cause". In the ensuing weeks, there have been other "shitstorm" threads that were just filled with dynamite and all it needed was a match. And two or three times - once when the thread was off the first "new posts" page and I was just starting to thank god that it was finally dead - you made a post that threw in that match and brought the post back to life. I felt betrayed by you the first time, and each time you threw that match. Maybe my standard for you was higher because you were a writer.
Anyway, then I saw this thread. That you started. When you have my personal email and my full attention any time you want it. I still, I guess, consider you part of the team and our goals are alligned in that we grow the community into something special. So why this, and the other posts I refer to, had to happen in public when you could have sent an email, is beyond me. But I apologize. I should have been forthcoming with you to begin with rather than ignore what was bothering me. Then you would have known, prior to posting, how it would have made me feel. And it's entirely possible that I'm taking the three or four posts that I didn't like, and not knowing about 50 posts in which you were very positive. And if so, I'm sorry.

The disconnectedness and arrogance have grown quite palpable here. You've got a whole thread of posters walking on eggshells to try to explain to you that despite your belief that your shit does not stink... in fact, it does...quite the stench actually. Doesn't mean the whole thing is rotten? Not in the slightest but there's an ever growing piece that is. Frankly your initial reply to MolsonX was shocking and your follow up only reinforced your inflexibility and unwillingness to listen.You needn't have written whole paragraphs to him, it could much more easily be condensed into a single statement:

"Fall into line MolsonX, you are stepping too far outside the accepted Dobber-Dogma, toe the line you little ingrate!"

We all "have your email" Dobber, many of us (probably MolsonX included at some point) have reached out to you personally to appeal to reason when we felt it important rather than airing the dirty laundry in the forums. Sadly your response has been to tighten the ranks and attack rather than listen and learn. You can see it in this thread as your mod squad make their little posts and fall into lockstep behind you, it's become extremely "us vs them" and everyone feels it. In my opinion, you're not interested in making these forums better at this point, you're just interested in being right.

I don't mind being the scapegoat at all, when you've got a big mouth like I do you get used to pissing people off and the backlash you get in return...you just hope you at least shake people up and make them think a bit if nothing else. But the thing is, it gets harder and harder to marginalize and discount a particular viewpoint when you get more and more longtime, much respected members chiming in to say their piece. Like it or not, these are the people who built your site and your livelihood, if you're not going to respect them then why should they respect you?

MolsonX, stfu and just repeat the following:

4 LEGS GOOD, 2 LEGS BAAAAAAD
4 LEGS GOOD, 2 LEGS BAAAAAAD
4 LEGS GOOD, 2 LEGS BAAAAAAD

[STLblues]

And now this thread will never die......