This Place Has Changed..........

[metaldude26]

One more important note. You get out what you put in.

[newfcollins]

I think the general discussion forum seems like there's not as much because posts are more spread out. Two years ago, you would post a hockey video in the general section, now it goes to the awesome videos section. Prospect discussions have move to the prospect forum. Etc.

This site is the best when it comes to breaking news. I go here on trade deadline and free agent day more than TSN or any other site because the news is generally posted up here right away.

[JAC123]

I agree Newfcollins, about the sub forums, I look at this site almost daily, and I find the site very informative, but wasn't even aware of the prospect forum? Maybe I missed the note? LOL. I look at a lot of posts, and as well am not a fan of the analytics and statistical analysis. As well, I only partake in one league and it is a lifetime keeper. So a lot of the head to head, and cap leagues doesn't apply to me, so hard for me to comment informatively. Still love the site, but as stated by others, peoples lives change, and so does our participation. Long live Dobber Hockey! It's all good, and agreed, you get out, what you put in. Good Luck with your teams, boys and girls.

[MXHockey]

LOL - what a load of shit. Dallas, you can be a real downer sometimes. Bringing negativity as if you're looking for it and I have no idea why

Two years ago, December of 2012 had 16 people post 100 times. 371 posts was the high.
Last month, in December of 2014, there were 33 people posting 100 times. Four people had more than 371 posts. Try and tell me that traffic here is down.

If you "saw" 10-15 people in general hockey discussion two years ago, then the tracking in the forum two years ago was off I had it set way too loosely. Now, the people you see online are actually online. Anyway, I'm just shaking my head, with half a smile, a little speechless.

It's too bad you took my post as negative Dobber when that was never the intent - and really this thread led to some really great discussion and insight from a number of respected members in their posts - exactly the intent of the thread. Perhaps I could have titled the thread "Has this place changed?" or maybe more appropriately "Trying to understand the evolution of a hockey forum". As others have also mentioned above (aside from your valid point about greater quantity) there seems to be a different 'vibe' in the forums over the past year - not saying this is good or bad - it's just different and noticeable and after six months of noticing this, just thought I would ask. By the looks of it, others have had the same question so why not have a discussion. Not sure why asking the Community about this caused such a reaction from you and was called a "load of $%#@". The internet can be funny, you interpreted the thread as negative, yet Shoeless interpreted what I was saying exactly the way it was meant.

For the most part, Shoeless' post (as did blayze's) built on what I was trying to get at, which I appreciate.

I think it has changed and here are some of the reasons why I think it has:

- Too many opinions being offered and not enough analysis. Foster a learning environment and business will pick back up.
- Gets tiresome doing analysis without the proper information - always been that way that newbies don't always recognize that the details matter and folks get to the point where they just stop asking for the information, they just move on to something else rather than give a response.
- Troll quotient is a little high these days.
- No one is taking care of the newbies. Populations age and fade and you need to nurture the replacements.
- Too much Corsi and Fenwick and not enough basic fantasy hockey.
- Too much focus on post count and very little focus on post quality.
- Seems like there is a maturer group fantasy hockey wise on the forums who have less need to ask.

Some of the things I think about in this case.

Anyway, a big thanks to everyone for chiming in as it makes a lot more sense now and confirms some of my own thoughts. All great points and the ones that really stood out IMO were:

-Life changes and members with higher post counts move on. I never realized how much this was occurring until Shoeless made his point to look at the top 20-30 posters all-time and some of the folks we have lost. This is just the reality of life, I guess I'm noticing lots of guys like blayze/bondon/shoeless/Chic/mcgoo/Zorro/dyz not around as much or at all due to their own life commitments, which is too bad for the community as those guys are awesome members that I know I always looked too. In saying that, there are a number of new members that are really great.

-I find the debate where some folks are wanting to focus more on basic fantasy hockey stats rather than discussing Analytics very interesting. I find myself on the fence here, seeing the value in deeper analytic statistics but still having the greatest appreciation for focusing on the basic numbers. It's interesting how forum members are all over the board on this, as I thought everyone was embracing analytics 100%. I just thought this was a really interesting discussion point - very insightful.

-Totally agree that the ramblings have been really awesome. Steve has been great and his attention to detail has curbed the need to reach out in the forums as much. You basically get the answer to 100 questions from just reading his ramblings. In fact, while guru and I both mentioned the discussion in General Hockey Chat has slowed down lately - perhaps it's because Steve gives such in depth analysis of the games each night.

-Also great to get insight from islefan and Brady regarding the perspective of newer members, and I thought reveeta's point about how we trust our own judgement more and more as time goes by was really good too.

-Bomm's point that it's the natural evolution of the forum - nailed it.

[Excelsior]

MolsonX I totally agree with your OP and subsequent reply and had been thinking of making a post expressing a similar sentiment. The forum just feels different and I too have noticed the loss of what feels like a lot of senior posters.

You also beat me what I was going to reply to Dobber's response to your OP, which is- Dobber I am a big supporter of you and this site but I think your response seems a bit over-sensitive and over the top in response to MolsonX's post.

"LOL - what a load of shit. Dallas, you can be a real downer sometimes. Bringing negativity as if you're looking for it and I have no idea why"

I certainly didn't take MolsonX's comments as trying to be negative. I'm glad he sarted this discussion. I know you are trying to build your membership but I don't think this kind of response helps that or is warrented. That's just my thoughts, take it or leave it.

The one thing that I think greatly affected the forums was all the Technical problems we had in the last year including down time, loss of posts etc. I think a lot of members and readers got frustrated and were lost because of that and just never came back. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault but I know of people that rarely visit the site now because of that and others that only read the ramblings and never visit the forum now.

I think Shoeless and others have made some great points as well.

I also agree with McGoo about the quantity over quality. I find the "Top poster this Month" race and the little award icons childish and unnecessary. I know it was done in an effort to increase traffic and posts but honestly I don't think that was the right way to go about itand if anything I think it has had a negative affect. That's just my opinion.

What I see is the more veteran posters being very welcoming, encouraging and nurturing of the newer members. This is what will sustain the forums and it's quality.

Plus I think it is important to also welcome dissenting, differing points of view as long as it doesn't get to the point of abuse. No-one wants to come to a site where everyone is a clone of each other.

[Axeman33]

It's too bad you took my post as negative Dobber when that was never the intent - and really this thread led to some really great discussion and insight from a number of respected members in their posts - exactly the intent of the thread.

I won't lie, I didn't read a whole lot of positive overtones in your OP myself so I can understand why Dobber replied the way he did, whether that was your intent or not. Your OP leaned on the negative side if you go back and read it again. I agree it's spun some positive replies and as you say, maybe it's the way you worded the title, I don't know, but that's the way I took it this morning when I read it and not really sure why it's a big deal. I don't understand why change is a bad thing for those who see it that way. People come and people go, it's the nature of the beast. We all have lives outside of Dobber Hockey and it's normal that they lead us down different paths. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

The fantasy hockey talk is still the main item here daily and still gets lots of traction and replies. It's rare that you see a thread go without any type of reply or advice and isn't that the main thing? I doubt you will too many other fantasy hockey sites that offer what this one does, no matter the changes people seem to see happening.

[Wfactor]

thanks for the shoutout MD appreciate it
i get bored and enjoy writing so i now type up small articles on my fantasy hockey team or other NHL players

If you feel like you already know enough to not ask for help why not help the newcomers get settled. give some thoughts when someone asks for trade help, anything could give them perspective that they might not of had before

[smoothfun]

YEEHAAAAAAAAAA!

I wish I would have had the balls to bring forward this discussion!
Kudos to you Sir for "opening" this topic.

Dobber , your response would explain part of the problem!
That's why I never brought this up , I wimped out because
your response is what I expected.

Sometimes things go to our heads , innocently enough but ,
it happens.

All the site problems took away from the professional quality
we feel when we come here and worse left many of us feeling
"why is it just this site? I'll go to TSN , etc , for my "fix""

After going through a difficult year which took me away from
here , I returned ready to get back to my few posts a day.
So I make my 1st return post and the 1st response is , basically ,
scram troll!
Next thing I know someone starts taking things I'm "saying" out
of context , as happened here imo , and I'm in a shit storm , lol!

That said , I think , as I believe someone has in-advertently pointed
out , many of the regular/frequent posters are now friends and have
created their own communities.
I saw it coming , it was a matter of time , natural evolution I believe
is the term being used to describe this.

So now we "join" , get to know some folks and then "pick/choose" a
group to converse with regularly after we've read the "front page"(AKA: The Ramblings , great job!)

I am in total agreement that this is the best site I know of for fantasy sports , congrats to Dobber for
doing what many of us fear , going for it , gambling on a dream , good on you Sir!
Now come back to earth and remember us little people!

That is the other problem we have here , imo , now with the growth of the site , the growth of fantasy
sports , many of us are now the minority , as the percentage of sport enthusiasts is now much greater
than the simple fantasy hockey player.

I hope this thread helps to continue to improve this site and the users of it!

Now.....wait for it.......easy.....ok....POOL ON!

[smoothfun]

Axeman , I left out Sir in case you are jot an officer in the Navy , if you are well you get it.
Former Zipper Head myself , so you can excuse me for that.

You touched on exactly what I am trying to explain here , some of us have work , spouse , kids
and this. Many of us work regular jobs ,regular hrs. + O/T , + odd jobs.Then many have family ,
and today that could be 2 moms , 2 dads , mom & dad , etc. Then we volunteer or coach or have
other demands.Then we have our down time where many of us come here to just do our thing.
That is our life!
So you see this is a big deal to many of us , who it now seems are the minority , not complaining ,
just trying to explain how I see it.

Axeman you have been a huge addition to this site and remind me of the pioneers from the golden days way back
when , around here , lol!
Huge pat on the back S..woops that was close!
So now you and others like you , sports guys , for lack of a better term than Jock , which I hate to use , are the majority
and things have changed.....overall for the better of the new majority.....but , at the expense of the old majority , maybe.

POOL ON!

[Bomm Bastic]

As far as the quantity vs quality and post count issues, let me say this. I believe - and I do not mean to speak for Dobber - but....I believe we can chalk the 'Top Posters of the Month' metric to the law of unintended consequences. That is to say, it was merely intended to be an indicator of members and their respective contributions to the site via posts. However, certain members (and certainly not all) interpreted this as a "Hey! Let's make it a competition and see if I can win at any cost"

That's fine. Their choice. Whatever...but blaming Dobber for its misuse is misguided.

Further, I also find it ironic that certain members complain of padded post counts without thinking twice about padding their own with numerous posts full of insults, vitriol, hyperbolic shit slinging at other members. And so what if I pad my post count with a stupid joke, or dumb video??? All work and no play make Bomm a dull boy. Jeebus....hockey insight is not the only reason why I come to this site. It's a daily release for me - hockey, beer, movies etc...it's all good as far as I am concerned.

...and lastly. May I make a suggestion? The next member who wants to criticize the writing on this site. Why not nut-up and offer to up the quality by writing a weekly article yourself? That would certainly go further in making this a "better" web site rather than arm chair quarterbacking from afar. At the very least, offer constructive criticism while providing possible solutions.

Just my two cents.

[Excelsior]

I don't think anyone is blaming Dobber for users turning the Top Posters of the Month into a competition. I just don't see why it needs to be a topic on the header or whatever that bar is called near the top of every forum page. I am assuming it was placed there with the purpose of trying to get people to post more and make the forum more active after all the trouble with the forum earlier in the year. I could be totally wrong.

We've always been able to see every members post count and reputation next to their username in the Members List ( which is also found under the Community drop down list ). I guess I just don't see why anyone cares about post count one way or the other and especially monthly post counts.

Some people post occasionally but have very meaningful and informative posts and some people post numerous times a day and add very little to a discussion and vice versa.

[fungchen3]

MolsonX is correct. This place has changed. I started noticing the change about 12-18 months ago. However, IMO, this isn't a reflection of Dobber, his passion, and the rock solid product (and forum) he makes possible. Let's not forget, Dobber is one man... and he's wearing a lot of hats and trying to make a living like the rest of us. This is a great fantasy resource. Has the "fun factor" on these forums been better in the past? I'd say yes... and by A LOT unfortunately. But the Guide and some of the articles and features trump anything else available - at least to me.

As for why these boards have changed? Sure, I have my own ideas, like everyone else, but I can't pinpoint one specific reason.

But I will say this... Excelsior's comments shouldn't be passed over. I do feel the whole "post quantity trumps quality" and "top posters of the month"... as well as the cartoony icons and monikers to the far right sort of watered down the soul of this place. Over the past year or two, I've seen so many "fluff" responses - clear stat-boosters. Anytime there seems to be a "competition" (and in this case, post count, icons, awards and rep seem to be the golden achievements) there will be a large group of people who focus more on the "game." Then, we need to tread through a bunch of quick sand to find a few carrots, unlike previous years.

Dobber, I'm sure you mean well - and the name of the game is to "encourage" posts and posters, but it's kind of like the NHL stamping logos on the glass and (soon to be on jerseys) - it chips away at the purity and soul. And once that starts to go, it's a slippery slope.

Like I said - this place used to be a Mecca. I also think the over-policing has hurt. Going back to 08, 09, 10, 11, etc. it seemed like there were always "characters" and a few "trolls" who were usually handled by the regulars. It was like a bar atmosphere - nobody walks into "your bar" and gets the place messy without finding the door. Maybe the regulars failed (and I'll put myself in this group) in doing our job... so Dobber decided to go in a more strict direction. I'm not sure.

This place used to be a collection of different people - all who brought different personalities and quirks to the table. About a year or more ago it started to feel very "cliquish" on here. And who wants that?

I've seen a few of the "moderator" posts recently and I declined to comment, since no more fuel was needed. This one, I decide to speak up a tiny bit - mainly because I truly think something constructive can come from some of the comments made here. MolsonX and Excelsior are good people - the type of people needed around here. I've never heard Excelsior complain just to complain. There's some merit here.

[MXHockey]

I won't lie, I didn't read a whole lot of positive overtones in your OP myself so I can understand why Dobber replied the way he did, whether that was your intent or not. Your OP leaned on the negative side if you go back and read it again. I agree it's spun some positive replies and as you say, maybe it's the way you worded the title, I don't know, but that's the way I took it this morning when I read it and not really sure why it's a big deal. I don't understand why change is a bad thing for those who see it that way. People come and people go, it's the nature of the beast. We all have lives outside of Dobber Hockey and it's normal that they lead us down different paths.

The fantasy hockey talk is still the main item here daily and still gets lots of traction and replies. It's rare that you see a thread go without any type of reply or advice and isn't that the main thing? I doubt you will too many other fantasy hockey sites that offer what this one does, no matter the changes people seem to see happening.

No one was ever slamming the site, or suggesting this site isn't great, or that change is bad - it was just an inquiry and comment that things seem different these days, similar to what others said even before I posted this thread and what some have said in this thread. Really the Original Post was an attempt to say - "hey all, things seem different around here, what's going on? Hey what happened to some of the senior members - they've disappeared over the past six months?! And hey guys, General Hockey Chat (my favorite forum) seems slow this season - let's get it going!" And honestly - i think Excelsior makes a great point that there seems to be a clone like culture at times these days.

Chris - I can appreciate your opinion that my original post (and perhaps thread title) read with a negative undertone - and I believe I addressed that and owned that in my last post. I did post that right before going to bed, so maybe it could have been worded it differently - but it wasn't worded disrespectfully. I have a lot of respect for you as a moderator and writer as well, but not sure I buy what you're saying about Dobber's response. The response was offside. I know Dobber is a busy guy and this site and the work attached to it is huge, but if someone responded to you the way Dobber responded to my post - as a moderator, guaranteed you would have deleted it and likely imposed an infraction.

As for the back and forth and difference of opinions in this thread - this has been great discussion and if this created an opportunity for members like Excelsior and smoothfun and fungchen to have their say, then no regrets. These are quality members who give good advice here - their participation should be encouraged and the site should be glad for the feedback they gave. I don't mind being the "bad guy" if it gave folks a chance to give some quality feedback.

If some people want to make me the bad guy in this thread, then let me say this:

- I've been a member since 2007 with 6000+ posts - and would estimate 99% of those have been positive and respectful, as for the 1% we all have our moments. Heck I've had my run-ins with the odd moderator (and with mcgoo/Dakk/Ev - but I also appreciate their great knowledge and passion and the edge they bring does have a place here when they keep themselves in check).

-I was a writer for the site for over a year - unfortunately a couple of months ago I had to step aside due to busyness with family, one year old son, work, coaching etc. Dobber and I left on good terms - I appreciated the opportunity to write for the site and Dobber appreciated the time I put in - definitely no hard feelings and a mutual respect there as far as I know. Nowadays I try to get on the forums as much as I can, whenever I can.

As a writer for the site Chris, you know first hand that writers are volunteers and write articles because we love the game, enjoy fantasy hockey and want to contribute to the site. The only work I was paid for (and this is not a complaint) was when I wrote for Dobber's Guide last summer - and I redirected my pay for that to the organization that Shoeless works with in Cambodia to help a great cause while contributing to a great site. I never wanted or expected any form of financial compensation - just wanted to give back, pay it forward to a member like shoeless in that case, and be a better writer.

-Last year I was lucky enough to win a seat to the DraftStreet hockey championship (big one day cash tournament) and offered to write an article for Dobber about this experience, knowing he would benefit business wise in his partnerships with sites like Draftstreet, DraftKings, FanDuel etc. I didn't get anything nor expect anything from Dobber for this extra work and these extra articles - and the gesture was wholeheartedly put out there knowing it could help Dobber with his business relationships with these sites.

-I also offered to help moderate for the site if needed when I had the time and was writing for the site.


So overall, I think it's fair to say that I've helped Dobber and his site/business quite a bit in various ways and will continue to contribute any way I can. I've said many times in previous posts and articles how great this place is - but lately there just seems to be a different vibe that I couldn't put my finger on - so I asked the Community to help me understand. It appears I wasn't alone with my question. I have the utmost respect for Dobber and this site. But being told my opinion is negative and a load of shiz is insulting, and I stand by the premise of starting this thread.

[Dutch]

MolsonX is absolutely right. And Excelsior and Fungchen3 have explained it better than I could so I will leave that alone. I believe though that the big forum change initiated this change.

Like fungchen said, this used to be a "bar" atmosphere and now, as shown even in this thread, it is no longer as such. The mods that responded in this exact thread are even defending something that does not need defending. I mean it is the way it is, and its ok to have a chat about it. Not sure why the defensive stance by Dobber and mods.


I do find though that posts are hardly answered in a quick enough matter to make a quick decision, if you know what I mean. Back in teh day I would post something and I could have decided in 10 minutes what to do. Nowadays sometimes in 12 hours still no responses. That is frustrating, especially if youre a newbie.

The postcount is hilarious. Back in the day, as some may remember, we had REP count and there were a few rep whores. Now there are postcount whores. Not sure why anyone honestly cares about posts or reputation counts. Those medals I could care less about, but I do find it funny to see people get off on that.

The question is how do we get back to the old days, and I am afraid I know the answer to that. I don't think we will.

[fungchen3]

The question is how do we get back to the old days, and I am afraid I know the answer to that. I don't think we will.

Dutch, we obviously share similar opinions here. The only thing I'll say about the above is - I'm not sure it has to be back to the "old days" (meaning the forums can't grow and evolve). But, I do think a little "back to the basics" could help a bit here.

I definitely think the forums are designed to incentivize post count, award collections and icon statuses. While a good-natured gesture, it makes solid feedback and thought-provoking posts an afterthought with a bunch of people. That's a problem, and one that could easily be addressed. Nuke the icons, the iron man heads, status labels and keep post count and Rep like 99% of the other message boards on the net. Not to mention, having little Robin, Bruce Lee, and various cartoon icons and nicknames next to all of our names, sort of make the forum look very "kiddish."

Let's get back to the down and dirty posting. Let's talk some hockey and take pride in offering the best advice, and thought-provoking content, as possible instead of collecting visual charms like we're playing Trivia Crack or Fruit Ninja.

Back in 08 and those years, we all proved our worth by actual contributions, not numbers and charms.