View Poll Results: Who would you prefer to target in a trade?

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  • Ryan Miller

    8 53.33%
  • Kari Lehtonen

    7 46.67%
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Thread: Ryan Miller or Kari Lehtonen?

  1. #1
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    Default Ryan Miller or Kari Lehtonen?

    Well it didn't take long, an owner in my league has both Miller and Lehtonen on the trading block. I could use either one, I'm on pretty thin ice with my goaltending. The question is, which one to target and why? Team and scoring cats in sig. Right now, I'm leaning toward Lehtonen, but I'd like to hear what the forum has to say.
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    Ryan Miller is twice the goalie that Lehtonen is so he would be my choice
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    Ryan Miller is twice the goalie that Lehtonen is so he would be my choice
    I'll disagree with this. Lehtonen is an elite goalie. Top-10 goalie in NHL. I'll still give the edge to Miller as of right now but Lehtonen is really close to him.

    As for whom to target? I like both goalies and would target the one with cheaper price tag attached to him. Pretty sure that's Lehtonen. He's still pretty underrated goalie.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    I'll disagree with this. Lehtonen is an elite goalie. Top-10 goalie in NHL. I'll still give the edge to Miller as of right now but Lehtonen is really close to him.

    As for whom to target? I like both goalies and would target the one with cheaper price tag attached to him. Pretty sure that's Lehtonen. He's still pretty underrated goalie.
    Agreed Miller has name value but lehtonen can flat out play and looks to be healthy consistently now as opposed to early in his career. Miller having a concussion and playing like garbage for half a season actually makes him the more recent injury risk if you want to look at that part. But im not worried about either's health just tossed it in there. I got lehtonen in a draft even after guys like backstrom, bryz, varly, etc all off the boards and i couldnt believe it. most of the guys are from dobber (so i assume above avg educated in fantasy hockey goings) so it goes to show you how underrated he is. Also keep in mind his defence is nowhere near as proven or high priced as Miller yet statistically he is as good or better. Dallas is building something special and he is their man, get in now before he proves those doubters wrong this season.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    I'll disagree with this. Lehtonen is an elite goalie. Top-10 goalie in NHL. I'll still give the edge to Miller as of right now but Lehtonen is really close to him.

    As for whom to target? I like both goalies and would target the one with cheaper price tag attached to him. Pretty sure that's Lehtonen. He's still pretty underrated goalie.
    I love how one good season equates to 'elite'...

    I have no idea how you're getting top 10 either, that's a big stretch too.

    Here's 10 who are easily ahead of him in terms of talent in the NHL right now

    Lundqvist
    Quick
    Price
    Luongo
    Rinne
    Kiprusoff
    Ward
    Miller
    Brodeur
    Rask

    then you've got guys like Schneider, Elliot, Bernier who will be knocking on the door soon to break into that club.
    Lehtonen isn't elite, he's middle of the pack at best...I lump him in with Halak, Anderson, Neimi, Bryz, Smith etc. And those guys are good goalies and if they can show consistency in their game they might threaten that top 10 (like look at the season that Smith and Halak had? And Bryz was great before PHI, he could bounce back big). Lehtonen needs to show us he can stay healthy and play the way he did last season all the time...one good fantasy season does not an elite goalie make
    Last edited by mister_mcgoo; January 20, 2013 at 10:42 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I love how one good season equates to 'elite'...
    Well I guess Giroux isn't elite either. He's only got one season of elite level play so far. Or Erik Karlsson for that matter. Personally I'm very comfortable labelling those two as elite - just like I'm with Lehtonen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I have no idea how you're getting top 10 either, that's a big stretch too.

    Here's 10 who are easily ahead of him in terms of talent in the NHL right now

    Lundqvist
    Quick
    Price
    Luongo
    Rinne
    Kiprusoff
    Ward
    Miller
    Brodeur
    Rask
    Lehtonen has always been an elite talent. There's very few goalies who have more natural talent than Lehtonen has. And in the past two seasons with the Stars Lehtonen's game has risen up the level of his talent. I'm comfortable putting him as a top-10 goalie in NHL (I'm not talking about fantasy value, I'm talking about actual level of game; for example I love Fleury and could take him in fantasy over Lehtonen because of surroundings but I think Lehtonen is the better goalie of the two). Lundqvist, Rinne, Quick, Price, Miller and after that there's a close group of guys in which I'd place Lehtonen (along with Kipper, Ward, Rask - after those there are Halak, Smith, Schneider, Fleury and Brodeur).

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    then you've got guys like Schneider, Elliot, Bernier who will be knocking on the door soon to break into that club.
    Lehtonen isn't elite, he's middle of the pack at best...I lump him in with Halak, Anderson, Neimi, Bryz, Smith etc. And those guys are good goalies and if they can show consistency in their game they might threaten that top 10 (like look at the season that Smith and Halak had? And Bryz was great before PHI, he could bounce back big). Lehtonen needs to show us he can stay healthy and play the way he did last season all the time...one good fantasy season does not an elite goalie make
    Guys like Elliott and Bernier are nowhere near Lehtonen's talent level. Never have been, never will be. That's not to say they aren't good goalies but neither possesses the talent that Lehtonen has.

    You can certainly consider Lehtonen a middle of the pack goalie but I respectfully disagree with your opinion on him. I don't consider Lehtonen an elite goalie because of one good fantasy season; I consider him elite goalie because of his talent and the level of game his shown the past two seasons with the Dallas Stars. The goalies you mentioned are very good and some of them have had amazing seasons but in terms of talent I don't see anyone being as talented as Lehtonen is. I'd definitely take Lehtonen over all of them if I were building an actual NHL-team. In fantasy hockey you can certainly take Halak who plays in Hithcock's system over Lehtonen and I wouldn't blame you one bit.
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    By the way, Angus also considers Lehtonen as an elite goalie:

    http://www.defendingbigd.com/2012/10...o-elite-status
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    Good discussion Gentlemen. All I can say is I hope the other owner considers Lehtonen to be a middle of the pack kinda guy. Carcillo has hit on an important fact, it's all about the price, and I'm thinking I'm paying big for Miller but might be able to arrange a pretty good deal for Lehtonen. Anyone else?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Well I guess Giroux isn't elite either. He's only got one season of elite level play so far. Or Erik Karlsson for that matter.
    That's foolish and you know it, you're comparing apples to oranges. If Giroux was 30 with 6 lackluster seasons under his belt and suddenly reeled off 90+ pts I would agree with you but that's hardly the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Lehtonen has always been an elite talent. There's very few goalies who have more natural talent than Lehtonen has. And in the past two seasons with the Stars Lehtonen's game has risen up the level of his talent. I'm comfortable putting him as a top-10 goalie in NHL (I'm not talking about fantasy value, I'm talking about actual level of game; for example I love Fleury and could take him in fantasy over Lehtonen because of surroundings but I think Lehtonen is the better goalie of the two). Lundqvist, Rinne, Quick, Price, Miller and after that there's a close group of guys in which I'd place Lehtonen (along with Kipper, Ward, Rask - after those there are Halak, Smith, Schneider, Fleury and Brodeur).

    I'm not talking fantasy value either, but for me Lehtonen is as mediocre a talent as Fleury. But if we're talking pure talent then I cannot fathom how you have him valued above a guy like Brodeur, that's just ridiculous IMO. Come back and talk to me if Lehtonen even wins a cup...nevermind 3 of them!...or 2 gold medals, or 4 vezinas, or wins 650 games, 120 shutouts...the list goes on and on and on. Granted he's at the end of his career and is not as dominant as he was in his prime, but if we're comparing pure talent then Kari isn't fit to lace up Marty's skates!
    Last edited by mister_mcgoo; January 20, 2013 at 11:32 AM.
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    Agree with Carcillo's line of thinking on the price..Depending on the price differential I'd take Miller. But if the price is too steep, Lehtonen is a great option as well. I personally think Buffalo will have a better year this year and believe Miller to be the better goalie. But if he is asking for the moon and cripple your team for Miller, then you will just have to "settle" on Lehtonen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    That's foolish and you know it, you're comparing apples to oranges. If Giroux was 30 with 6 lackluster seasons under his belt and suddenly reeled off 90+ pts I would agree with you but that's hardly the case.
    Sure that's foolish comparison but so is to think player development is linear. Look at Marty St.Louis. He certainly was and still is elite player despite getting there at an later age. And that goes for goalies even more. You can't rule out Lehtonen as being elite if he took the longer road there.


    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I'm not talking fantasy value either, but for me Lehtonen is as mediocre a talent as Fleury. But if we're talking pure talent then I cannot fathom how you have him valued above a guy like Brodeur, that's just ridiculous IMO. Come back and talk to me if Lehtonen even wins a cup...nevermind 3 of them!...or 2 gold medals, or 4 vezinas, or wins 650 games, 120 shutouts...the list goes on and on and on. Granted he's at the end of his career and is not as dominant as he was in his prime, but if we're comparing pure talent then Kari isn't fit to lace up Marty's skates!
    Sorry, but that argument makes no sense. We aren't talking about where to place Lehtonen is all-time goalie rankings. Marty would certainly be top-3 in that regard - no question about it. When ranking goalies of today I think Brodeur is still a great goalie but not as good as he once was. Yes, at this point I do think Lehtonen has passed Brodeur. And in terms of pure talent, yes I do think Lehtonen has always been right there with Brodeur. His game has just taken a longer path to develop where as Marty comfortably stepped in NHL and started to dominate. But the natural talent has always been there with Lehtonen. Lehtonen so far hasn't shown the consistency of Brodeur has throughout his career, but the talent level is there in my opinion.
    Last edited by Carcillo; January 20, 2013 at 11:42 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post

    Sorry, but that argument makes no sense. We aren't talking about where to place Lehtonen is all-time goalie rankings. Marty would certainly be top-3 in that regard - no question about it. When ranking goalies of today I think Brodeur is still a great goalie but not as good as he once was. Yes, at this point I do think Lehtonen has passed Brodeur. And in terms of pure talent, yes I do think Lehtonen has always been right there with Brodeur. His game has just taken a longer path to develop where as Marty comfortably stepped in NHL and started to dominate. But the natural talent has always been there with Lehtonen. Lehtonen so far hasn't shown the consistency of Brodeur has throughout his career, but the talent level is there in my opinion.
    What do you not understand? You said it wasn't about fantasy numbers and I agreed. So then its a discussion of pure talent I thought? And talent doesn't cease to exist just because you get old and your body starts to break down a bit does it? If that were the case we wouldn't have guys like Marty and Lidstrom and Selanne and St. Louis right? So if that's the discussion we are having then I think even speaking Lehtonen's name in the same breath as Brodeur is complete insanity.

    I guess we're just miles apart on this but I think we're going to see Lehtonen come back to earth this season. He'll have a decent career I am sure, he's a decent goalie...but elite? Not even close IMO, I think you and Angus are delusional -lol
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    Agree with Carcillo. As I've said in other threads, Lehtonen is way underrated on these forums and to say Miller is "twice the goalie" that Lehtonen is, is a huge exaggeration.

    Stars are an improved team (offensively - to be clear) this year and we got a glimpse of their sick new powerplay last night which was without Benn. They will win more games than the Sabres in my opinion.

    If the price for Miller is significantly steeper, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go for Lehtonen - I did in my cash pool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    Agree with Carcillo. As I've said in other threads, Lehtonen is way underrated on these forums and to say Miller is "twice the goalie" that Lehtonen is, is a huge exaggeration.

    Stars are an improved team (offensively - to be clear) this year and we got a glimpse of their sick new powerplay last night which was without Benn. They will win more games than the Sabres in my opinion.

    If the price for Miller is significantly steeper, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go for Lehtonen - I did in my cash pool.
    well to be fair, you BOTH own him...ever consider that that might be contributing to your man crush a little? I dunno man, I'll concede that he's surprised me with how much he's improved his play and conditioning since coming to the Stars but I prefer to take his success with a healthy dose of salt, especially when people start tossing the term 'elite' around. You need to put together at least 3 really strong seasons in a row to qualify for that conversation IMO

    And I'm not a hater, I owned him in my league last season and was thrilled to get a career year out of him since it really helped my team. But when it came time to declare keepers and sign contracts I didn't have any hesitation dropping him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    What do you not understand? You said it wasn't about fantasy numbers and I agreed. So then its a discussion of pure talent I thought? And talent doesn't cease to exist just because you get old and your body starts to break down a bit does it? If that were the case we wouldn't have guys like Marty and Lidstrom and Selanne and St. Louis right? So if that's the discussion we are having then I think even speaking Lehtonen's name in the same breath as Brodeur is complete insanity.
    Talent doesn't cease but level of game usually does as you get older and that's happened to Brodeur. That's why I said I consider Lehtonen to be the better goalie today. Lehtonen is getting to his prime and has risen his game to the elite level. Brodeur is still very good goalie but not the best in the world he was for a long time.

    And as I said, I think Lehtonen is equally talented as Brodeur. Lehtonen has always had that world class talent. But I guess we're speaking different terms when it comes to that. What has made Brodeur so great is the talent and work ethic to be the best. Lehtonen has lacked the latter up until he got to Dallas. He's been relying only on his talent and that doesn't take you to the elite level unless you put the work to get there. Lehtonen in his days with Atlanta wasn't keen on practising and wasn't really in good shape and that caused all those groin problems. That's not something you've seen from Marty ever and that what's separates elite talent from one of the all-time greatest despite the level of talent being equal. So were probably not on the same page when it comes to the term talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I guess we're just miles apart on this but I think we're going to see Lehtonen come back to earth this season. He'll have a decent career I am sure, he's a decent goalie...but elite? Not even close IMO, I think you and Angus are delusional -lol
    Agree to disagree. Lehtonen will make you a believer.
    Last edited by Carcillo; January 20, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
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