Pacioretty or....

[bagdikian]

Gagner, Clarkson, Ladd, Tanguay, MacD, JVR or Oshie.

Points only (assist/goals), injury risk adverse.

I'd hang on to Patches b/c I think he has the most upside but he just isn't getting the TOI since coming back. Not sure if its a temp. doghouse thing or something to be really concerned about.

Also thinking of ditching D. Brown, for one of the above, but he at least gets the TOI and will likely be a steady producer.

[Pengwin7]

Hmmmm.
This is a pretty even group of guys.

Even in points-only, I really like everything I'm seeing from David Clarkson.
TJ Oshie is also a nice pick... so is JVR.


Honestly, I thought Patches really overperformed last year. His whole line overperformed (DD & Cole). That can inflate people's expectations.

I'm torn: JVR/Clarkson/Patches/OShie. I see them all as 50-60pt guys. Take your pick.

[ross10019]

It's close with guys like JVR and Oshie, but I would hold onto Pacioretty.

It's a bad start, for sure, in part because Cole is playing injured but also because Pacioretty and DD have underperformed. Important to note that Pacioretty has been snakebitten, and he's the kind of player that once one goes in, you'll see him go on a tear, just watch.

[Pengwin7]

It's a bad start, for sure, in part because Cole is playing injured but also because Pacioretty and DD have underperformed. Important to note that Pacioretty has been snakebitten, and he's the kind of player that once one goes in, you'll see him go on a tear, just watch.

You use the word "underperformed".
I use the word "overperformed".
Funny how people set a new "expectation" for players and changes how they discuss them.
This offseason, there were even threads looking to swap Pavel Datsyuk! for Patches!.

MaxPac is only getting 15min/game this year.
Last year he got about 18min/game.

This season, Montreal is playing WELL.
They are winning.

So... why is there any reason for Therrien to change the way he is doing things and give Patches more ice-time?

I predicted this in the off-season, that the new coach (Therrien) would not necessarily lean on MaxPac-DD-Cole the way that RC did.

It's a different season, different coach.
I think a lot of people are making a mistake that last year's MaxPac-DD-Cole numbers could be repeated.
I even went so far myself as to make Erik Cole my "lock" pick with my over/under picks this year - and that pick is looking very, very, very good.

Simply stated, MaxPac-DD-Cole overperformed last year on a BAD Montreal Canadiens team.
There was no more "up" to last year's output.
Things were only bound to get worse as a new coach would make new changes to try to win games. And here we are...

[ross10019]

You use the word "underperformed".
I use the word "overperformed".
Funny how people set a new "expectation" for players and changes how they discuss them.
This offseason, there were even threads looking to swap Pavel Datsyuk! for Patches!.

MaxPac is only getting 15min/game this year.
Last year he got about 18min/game.

This season, Montreal is playing WELL.
They are winning.

So... why is there any reason for Therrien to change the way he is doing things and give Patches more ice-time?

I predicted this in the off-season, that the new coach (Therrien) would not necessarily lean on MaxPac-DD-Cole the way that RC did.

It's a different season, different coach.
I think a lot of people are making a mistake that last year's MaxPac-DD-Cole numbers could be repeated. I even went so far myself as to make Erik Cole my "lock" pick with my over/under picks this year - and that pick is looking very, very, very good.

Simply stated, MaxPac-DD-Cole overperformed last year on a BAD Montreal Canadiens team. There was no more "up" to last year's output. Things were only bound to get worse as a new coach would make new changes to try to win games. And here we are...

Points well taken, and I welcome this debate, here is my take.

What Pacioretty did last year is, in my opinion, NOT over-performance, it was reflective of the impact he will have throughout his career, health permitting. This is a player who I think will regularly score 30+ goals and 65-75 points, and he will not be a secondary winger on this team, he will be a go-to 1st line (or 1B line at minimum) winger.

Which brings me to Desharnais. Everyone knows how high Dobber is on Desharnais, and not everyone agrees, but I'm of his view. This is a player who has exceeded expectations at every level, he has consistently improved his numbers. Better still, Pacioretty's success has most often been when Desharnais was centering him, not just last year but look at Pacioretty's last stint in Hamilton before he was brought up. They go together like bread and butter. Desharnais is an excellent powerplay guy and set-up man, and Pacioretty, with his size and big shot, is a perfect complement to that, both at ES and on the PP.

Which brings me to Cole. I'd say he's one of the key reasons why the line is underperforming this year, and it's disconcerting. He's clearly suffering from an injury (as Eric Daoust observed in the Habs thread), but he was such an important cog to that line last year that his inability to push through checks and punch through shots are affecting ll 3 players.

I agree coaching changes can impact how players are used, but I'd bet big time that Therrien is not going to mess too much with that top line, despite their current struggles. He knows that the success of that line is huge for this team, given the uncertainty surrounding the 2nd line (Plekanec is solid but Gionta and Bourque can disappear) and given that Galchenyuk and Gallagher should be spared from too much pressure at this stage. He's got to get that line going, whatever way he can, and if anything that's by playing them more, not less. For this reason, I think Pacioretty's reduced minutes over the last 3-4 minutes were an anomaly and it won't last.

Separate from Cole and DD, I could see in the distant future a top line of Galchenyuk and Pacioretty, with Gallagher or Collberg on the other wing. Cole will be gone in a couple of years, and by that time Galchenyuk will be ready to take his rightful place as 1st line centerman, and DD will then likely be traded (at least he or Plekanec). For that reason, will be interesting to see how much they give Desharnais this summer when they re-sign him (they most likely will re-sign him, question is what the term and dollar figure will be).

But the crux of my post is Pacioretty's value, regardless of who is on his line. My view is that Pacioretty will be very very solid in keeper leagues for years to come, and I'd easily keep him ahead of most guys on that list, although JVR and Oshie are tempting. On top of everything else, he'll always be a heavy SOG guy, and he'll be the type of player who will usually get injured only in exceptional circumstances (Chara/stanchion, emergency appendectomy) rather than being beset by nagging injuries here and there, and he'll play through lots of pain and return very early from any injuries he'll suffer. These are the kinds of players you love to have, the ones that itch to get back on the ice after injury.

I am a big big believer in Patches.

Hope this helps.

[TigerUnderGlass]

You use the word "underperformed".
I use the word "overperformed".
Funny how people set a new "expectation" for players and changes how they discuss them.
This offseason, there were even threads looking to swap Pavel Datsyuk! for Patches!.

MaxPac is only getting 15min/game this year.
Last year he got about 18min/game.

This season, Montreal is playing WELL.
They are winning.

So... why is there any reason for Therrien to change the way he is doing things and give Patches more ice-time?

I predicted this in the off-season, that the new coach (Therrien) would not necessarily lean on MaxPac-DD-Cole the way that RC did.

It's a different season, different coach.
I think a lot of people are making a mistake that last year's MaxPac-DD-Cole numbers could be repeated.
I even went so far myself as to make Erik Cole my "lock" pick with my over/under picks this year - and that pick is looking very, very, very good.

Simply stated, MaxPac-DD-Cole overperformed last year on a BAD Montreal Canadiens team.
There was no more "up" to last year's output.
Things were only bound to get worse as a new coach would make new changes to try to win games. And here we are...

Patches minutes are down because he is recovering from a pretty serious injury right now.

Fact is Pacioretty was a volume shooter last year. Luck is usually indicated by high shooting percentages and higher than normal point %. Guys who produce shots tend to repeat their numbers.

[ross10019]

Anyone doubting Pacioretty now? 2 more goals tonight, 4 in past 3 games (yes, including that awful bouncer in on Ward to start the streak), and Desharnais feeding him nicely and getting hot at the same time, just knew this is how it would shake out.

[cizastro]

I just find it funny how people are talking about how slow of a start that Patches has had this season. He's at a point-per-game, yet people are claiming slow start?!?!? Maybe they were referring to goals scored, but I've heard a number of outlets talking about his early season disappointment despite the fact that he's pretty much hovered right around a PPG all season.

I'm very high on Pacioretty. While he may not be one of the most gifted people naturally, I think he's one of those players that just works harder and is more determined than 99% of the players in the league and because of that I feel he's going to be a stud.

I haven't had the luxury of watching him as often as I'd like, but I really like his work ethic and style of play.

[ross10019]

It's a bad start, for sure, in part because Cole is playing injured but also because Pacioretty and DD have underperformed. Important to note that Pacioretty has been snakebitten, and he's the kind of player that once one goes in, you'll see him go on a tear, just watch.

I've got a little horn here. Toot toot!