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[SirIrish]

ok buddy. whatever you say. you can have your above average center with stanley cups. I\'ll take my greatest goal scorer of all time and be happy about it.

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

This thread was a pretty good read, but I really think this sums it up. Ovie is undeniably a better goal-scorer and will likely continue to be so throughout his career. But so what?

Ask any player what their ultimate goal is and your gonna get the same answer \"to win the stanley cup\". And because this goal of hoisting the cup is the entire point of playing in the NHL to begin with, every player\'s legacy and what they contributed to the league will take this into account. Now, I\'m not saying ovie won\'t go on to win a cup or two, or, if he doesn\'t, wont be regarded as a elite level sniper. He\'s a champion. And the will of a true champion is very rarely denied its ultimate goal. But make no mistake, if both careers were to end today, Crosby\'s would be far superior to that of Ovechkins just by this one Stanley cup victory. Its that important.

[ridinryan44]

SirIrish wrote:

ok buddy. whatever you say. you can have your above average center with stanley cups. I\'ll take my greatest goal scorer of all time and be happy about it.

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

This thread was a pretty good read, but I really think this sums it up. Ovie is undeniably a better goal-scorer and will likely continue to be so throughout his career. But so what?

Ask any player what their ultimate goal is and your gonna get the same answer \"to win the stanley cup\". And because this goal of hoisting the cup is the entire point of playing in the NHL to begin with, every player\'s legacy and what they contributed to the league will take this into account. Now, I\'m not saying ovie won\'t go on to win a cup or two, or, if he doesn\'t, wont be regarded as a elite level sniper. He\'s a champion. And the will of a true champion is very rarely denied its ultimate goal. But make no mistake, if both careers were to end today, Crosby\'s would be far superior to that of Ovechkins just by this one Stanley cup victory. Its that important.

Absolutely....you are spot on with the fact that Crosby\'s legacy would be greater than Ovie\'s. I don\'t think there are many people that would argue any different. I just don\'t think it makes him a better player. Better legacy, damn rights. Better player? Up for debate....

[Shao]

ridinryan44 wrote:

leafs_1979 wrote:

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

I still don\'t see how Crosby winning a cup makes him a better player than Ovechkin? I see the argument for both sides, no one will ever win the argument as to who the better player actually is, but winning a cup doesn\'t make you a better player than another. Last time I checked it takes a team to win a cup, not one player. Fair enough that you think Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin, lots of people do. Using the fact that he has won a cup and Ovie hasn\'t is utterly ridiculous, IMO.

Don\'t bother. I know him and I still can\'t decide if he really is this stupid. High possibility.

Going by the first post though, it seemed to be just flame bait. He loves Crosby so much but knows how much hate he gets and how OV steals the spotlight and always will. He can\'t handle it and the only thing he can handle is finally getting a Stanley Cup.

What does this joker know? He took off his Pens jersey in game 6 and didn\'t watch the third period. Bandwagon!!! I shake my fist at you!!

Funniest thing yesterday. I told Qaf who won, and all he replied was \"what a bandwagon jumper!\"! hahaahah

[leafs_1979]

ridinryan44 wrote:

Absolutely....you are spot on with the fact that Crosby\'s legacy would be greater than Ovie\'s. I don\'t think there are many people that would argue any different. I just don\'t think it makes him a better player. Better legacy, damn rights. Better player? Up for debate....

back to my first post... I believe the Crosby Ovechkin rivalry will be discussed for years to come. and as proven in this forum people who are passionate supporters of both sides with argue forever.

again I\'m not debating that Ovechkin isn\'t better at certain elements of the game. he\'s a far better shooter, he is a far better scorer and he can lay people out in the open ice. Thats all great.
Again my point of view is every player wants to win the cup... more then any other trophy. I\'m only pointing out that in this battle that will go on what could be another 20 years people will eventually be measuring this statistic. And I\'m not talkign about myself I\'m talking about the Bob Mackenzie\'s and Pierre MacGuires of the world because when they bring up the Crosby vs. Ovechkin discussion you can bet your ass they\'ll mention who\'s won more cups.

Thats all I\'m saying. yes I like Crosby better... Part of that is because I have him on my beloved pool team... but I\'m not blind to the things ovechkin is doing to make the league better... he\'ll bring a new level of excitement to the game and give kids everywhere to confidence to play with a lot of passion. he\'s also going to give other kids (who are already cocky little bastards) the right to think its ok to over exaggerate on celebrations... and that may not be a good thing.

He\'s a role model and one thats getting better at that Job. Not an innovator.

Boom Boom Geoffrion is an innovator... until Ovechkin invents a shot (that he can consistently do) I don\'t I can give him that moniker..

again all I\'m saying is when its all said and done these two players will be extremely close in statistics and I\'m also pretty sure they\'ll be close in cup victories... right now its 1-0 but years from now who knows what it will be. but I bet you years from now this stat will matter most to both Sid and OV

[leafs_1979]

Hey did anyone watch the NBA finals game last night?
did you see the trophy ceremony?

What hat was Phil Jackson wearing? it wasn\'t a championship lakers hat. it was a hat with the Roman numeral for 10... with each year that he had lead a team to an NBA championship. He didn\'t have .705 on that hat signifying he has the greatest winning percentage in history or even a right angle triangle which would state he\'s revolutionized the triangle offense.

just saying... championships matter to the people who play the game.

[lanky]

leafs_1979 wrote:

Lanky wrote:

ok buddy. whatever you say. you can have your above average center with stanley cups. I\'ll take my greatest goal scorer of all time and be happy about it.

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

i wrote that in response to the fact that you said that ovechkin would be scoring 35-40 (i think... i don\'t feel like checking back and looking at the exact number you said) goals when he was 38.

If that\'s the case (and assuming he kept at least that pace throughout his career up to that point), he will have passed gretzky and become the number 1 goal scorer of all time. OF ALL TIME. PASSED GRETZKY.

As a washington fan and local resident, i can almost gaurentee you that ovechkin on his 13 year deal, passing gretzky in goal totals would be more significant to this team than winning a few less stanley cups than a player from another team.

Sure, edmonton can say that they won cups with Gretzky... but even more... they can say that they were home to the best goal scorer of all time (as of right now). That\'s huge for a franchise, for a fan base, and for the history of a team. Pittsburgh can say, yeah we won some cups with Jagr and Lemieux... and now another with Crosby and Malkin... but their fans can never say that any of those guys were the best ever.

Washington fans would always be able to say that ovechkin was the best goal scorer ever (assuming the scenario you mentioned - 38 with 35-40 goal seasons). That\'s really quite a significant deal. Yeah... i think i\'d be fine with being the GM that brings OV to town... even if it means winning 2-3 cups instead of 5.

[lanky]

leafs_1979 wrote:

He\'s a role model and one thats getting better at that Job. Not an innovator.

Boom Boom Geoffrion is an innovator... until Ovechkin invents a shot (that he can consistently do) I don\'t I can give him that moniker..

i don\'t know man... ovechkin\'s screen wrist shot (that he regularly uses and consistantly scores on), is pretty new and innovative as far as I\'m concerned. While he\'s most likely not the first to do it at the NHL level. He\'s most likely the first to somewhat \"perfect\" it.

How many players in the league consistantly took those style of shots before ovechkin? How many goal scorers will consistantly do it after ovechkin is gone. That\'s an indication of innovation.

Sure, i imagine at the time, the first guy to take a slap shot was just a role model... now he\'s an innovator...

All i\'m saying is, i think years from now... many players will play with the passion and enthusiasm ovechkin does... and use the \"position the defender in front of his own goalie and use him as a screen in a 1-on-1 situation\" shot... and people will look back on ovechkin as the one who spurred the trend. That just seems pretty innovative to me.

But regardless... I suppose this is only something that we\'ll be able to discuss a decade or two from now... so until then, it just remains my opinion that such events could indeed happen.

It\'s my hypothesis, and it\'s sound in theory. So I can not be wrong until my hypothesis is proven incorrect. In 10-20 years, if i\'m wrong, i\'ll admit it then. =)

[roncool11]

lanky wrote:

leafs_1979 wrote:

He\'s a role model and one thats getting better at that Job. Not an innovator.

Boom Boom Geoffrion is an innovator... until Ovechkin invents a shot (that he can consistently do) I don\'t I can give him that moniker..

i don\'t know man... ovechkin\'s screen wrist shot (that he regularly uses and consistantly scores on), is pretty new and innovative as far as I\'m concerned. While he\'s most likely not the first to do it at the NHL level. He\'s most likely the first to somewhat \"perfect\" it.

How many players in the league consistantly took those style of shots before ovechkin? How many goal scorers will consistantly do it after ovechkin is gone. That\'s an indication of innovation.

Sure, i imagine at the time, the first guy to take a slap shot was just a role model... now he\'s an innovator...

All i\'m saying is, i think years from now... many players will play with the passion and enthusiasm ovechkin does... and use the \"position the defender in front of his own goalie and use him as a screen in a 1-on-1 situation\" shot... and people will look back on ovechkin as the one who spurred the trend. That just seems pretty innovative to me.

But regardless... I suppose this is only something that we\'ll be able to discuss a decade or two from now... so until then, it just remains my opinion that such events could indeed happen.

It\'s my hypothesis, and it\'s sound in theory. So I can not be wrong until my hypothesis is proven incorrect. In 10-20 years, if i\'m wrong, i\'ll admit it then. =)

Lanky I love you man but Jesus Christ he\'s not a goddamn innovator.

[Shao]

SirIrish wrote:

Ask any player what their ultimate goal is and your gonna get the same answer \"to win the stanley cup\". And because this goal of hoisting the cup is the entire point of playing in the NHL to begin with, every player\'s legacy and what they contributed to the league will take this into account. Now, I\'m not saying ovie won\'t go on to win a cup or two, or, if he doesn\'t, wont be regarded as a elite level sniper. He\'s a champion. And the will of a true champion is very rarely denied its ultimate goal. But make no mistake, if both careers were to end today, Crosby\'s would be far superior to that of Ovechkins just by this one Stanley cup victory. Its that important.

Again, we JUST finished the finals. Crosby got his chance, OV hasn\'t b/c of the team he\'s on.

How are you putting a fair comparison? I don\'t disagree that cups = success, but it does not make a player better since it is a team game and a comparison is only logical if you make it as fair as possible.

If both careers end today, Crosby\'s would have deemed more successful yes. OV would have won more trophies and broken more records, yes.

They would both be successful, but I do believe OV would trade his for that one success Crosby has. Right now, not fair to compare.

Don\'t forget, Roenick went to the final his first year or second. Hasn\'t been since. It doesn\'t mean you will automatically get a chance. People are predicting both will have multiple opportunities, and I do believe that, but it\'s not considered the hardest thing to win in sports because the odds are so good when an individual player or two is so good.

The Detroit dynasty got 4 in 12 years. Are we that confident in the team structure of Pittsburgh to automatically throw up 3 - 4 in the remaining 16 - 18 years of hockey these young guys have left?