Dobber\'s Right - Fleury Makes Me Uneasy

[Kraftster]

Rangers0035 wrote:

It blows my mind that anyone has a bad word to say about Hossa leaving the pens for detroit...even pen fans. He was a penguin for a few weeks, he never said he was definitely resigning, and he wasnt a bad teammate or anything while he was there.
We bash athletes every chance we get when they just go for the big money. We say the modern athelete only cares about signing the biggest contract while winning takes a backseat. So, what did Hossa do? He turned down a long contract and a ton of money to sign a 1 year deal on a team he felt gave him the best chance to win.
In this age of greed hossa showed that some athletes still care more about winning than money. He should be praised, not bashed.

I don\'t think you\'ll find many Pens fans that really know the game who gripe about Hossa as if he owed anything to the Pens. The part about the whole situation that (rightfully) irritates fans is the fact that he strung Shero along and pulled this 1-year Detroit deal out of nowhere on day 2 of free agency. By that time most of the other options were gone. Thankfully, Orpik hadn\'t made any decisions so the Pens were able to lock him down as a result of Hossa\'s decision. Still, it left the Pens with the likes of Satan and Fedotenko. Now, I\'m a Shero critic around these parts (Pittsburgh), and I often say to Hossa-haters and Shero-lovers that Shero, as an NHL GM has got to have a Plan B. But, this guy is a pretty solid GM who usually covers all his bases. I honestly believe that he thought he had Hossa. You can say that it wasn\'t Hossa\'s fault that RS got too confident in that fact, but, I think there is at least some truth to the notion that Hossa led the Pens (Shero) on to believe he was staying. That is what the griping is about.

[Rangers0035]

Kraftster wrote:

Imagine that a 24-year old goaltender is still battling with finding consistency.

Honestly, I really don\'t get the Fleury hate. Some goalies will never look smooth and precise in goal, but they\'ll just get it done when it matters. In the Washington series, there\'s no doubt that Varlamov outplayed Fleury for large stretches, but, anyone who watched every minute of that series knows that Varlamov didn\'t make it look pretty. Yet, he made the saves (for most of the first 6 games). Fleury is capable of getting into such a zone that he instills total confidence in those watching -- the 40+ save shutout against NJ this year comes to mind, or, the first round against the Flyers too. However, what he\'s also shown a knack for is making timely saves for his team when he\'s not in that zone.

Everyone is quick to bring up the fluky game 6 goal from last year where he sat on the puck and it squirted in -- usually mentioning how he might not be a \"big time\" goalie in the league. Yet, his performance in Game 5 (an elimination game, just like Game 6) gets overlooked because of what happened in the next game.

He really had his struggles against the Caps this year in the playoffs. I think that had a lot to do with how few shots he faced. And, most of the few shots that he saw were dangerous, difficult shots to handle. Yet, the Pens come out on top with two overtime wins and fought off the start by the Caps in game 7 thanks in large part to a big breakaway save by Fleury. So despite some struggles, he\'s still been able to come up with timely saves when the team needs it most -- we\'ve seen some glimpses of the \"it\" factor being present.

I realize he\'s got consistency issues. But, again, he\'s 24 years old. He relied on his athletic ability for years and he\'s frankly still learning that its okay to let the puck hit him (instead of having to \"save\" the puck all the time). Athletically, there are few that are superior. If you\'re the Pens, you take the guy with the high ceiling thanks to his athletic ability every single time. If Fleury puts it together, he\'ll be one of the elite. Even if he continually battles with consistency, he still has the potential to be good enough to win a Cup.

My money, though, is on Fleury eventually becoming one of the league\'s elite. At the end of this playoffs, he\'ll be up to 50 career playoff games -- the most by any goalie since the lockout. That is great experience that he ought to be able to draw upon moving forward. He\'s learning and improving many areas of his game each year. By the time he hits his \"goalie prime\" age of 27, I don\'t expect to see these kinds of posts.

Im not sure there is anything you said that I dont agree with. I never said Fleury couldnt be an elite goalie, I just said he isnt one RIGHT NOW. I said that hes about as talented as any goalie in this league. I just think people completely overrate him and where he is right now in his career.

It seems as though hes always given a pass. The same person who is quick to criticize a young goalie for one bad performance, will make excuses for Fleury and his bad performances. You said it yourself...hes only 24. However, this is his 5th year in the league. If he takes that next step at 27 like you say, he would have played 8 seasons before hitting that level. How many other goalies get an 8 yr window before we write him off? Kari Lehtonen has just as much talent as fleury and has only played 4 seasons, and people have already written him off long ago.

Lets not forget...every year for the past 3 years it was supposed to be \"the year\" for him to break out, and it still hasnt come. Three years ago he won 40 games but had an early playoff exit. Then everyone wondered if he could lead this team during playoffs. The next year he takes them to the cup finals and everyone says okay, no more question marks. Then during these playoffs hes been very average at best, with a few terrible games sprinkled in, and here we are all over again saying, \"hes young, wait til next year.\"

I also agree with you that its not how you look making the save, just as long as you save it. So, with that logic..I hope when youre making your list for nhl goalies, you hav Tim Thomas ranked a lot higher than fleury. He looks awkward on every save he makes, but he makes a lot more than Fleury and is much more consistent at it.

Again, I never questioned his talent or his ceiling. Im just pointing out that there is a big difference between what he is NOW and what he COULD BECOME. Im not sure many people differentiate it though. Personally, I dont think he will ever be on the same level as Luongo, Lundqvist, Brodeur etc...If he doesnt reach that level though, it wont be bc of lack of talent, bc he certainly has that high of a ceiling.

[Rangers0035]

[/quote] I don\'t think you\'ll find many Pens fans that really know the game who gripe about Hossa as if he owed anything to the Pens. The part about the whole situation that (rightfully) irritates fans is the fact that he strung Shero along and pulled this 1-year Detroit deal out of nowhere on day 2 of free agency. By that time most of the other options were gone. Thankfully, Orpik hadn\'t made any decisions so the Pens were able to lock him down as a result of Hossa\'s decision. Still, it left the Pens with the likes of Satan and Fedotenko. Now, I\'m a Shero critic around these parts (Pittsburgh), and I often say to Hossa-haters and Shero-lovers that Shero, as an NHL GM has got to have a Plan B. But, this guy is a pretty solid GM who usually covers all his bases. I honestly believe that he thought he had Hossa. You can say that it wasn\'t Hossa\'s fault that RS got too confident in that fact, but, I think there is at least some truth to the notion that Hossa led the Pens (Shero) on to believe he was staying. That is what the griping is about.[/quote]

I dont think it goes that deep for the majority of the penguin fan base. I think its as simple as \"He didnt think we were good enough and he chose THEM over US\" I think most people view it more as a slap in the face than anything.

Im sure that Shero did think he had Hossa locked up to a new contract. However, Im not sure its for the same reasons you think. Just as you assume that hossa may have led them on, I assume that Shero just didnt think there was anyway he would turn down that big of a contract. (I say assume bc obviously neither of us were in the room with them and have no clue what really happened)
My guess is that he was just as shocked as anyone that a player today would turn down that kind of contract for less money and a 1yr deal somewhere else.

[Kraftster]

Rangers0035 wrote:

Kraftster wrote:

Imagine that a 24-year old goaltender is still battling with finding consistency.

Honestly, I really don\'t get the Fleury hate. Some goalies will never look smooth and precise in goal, but they\'ll just get it done when it matters. In the Washington series, there\'s no doubt that Varlamov outplayed Fleury for large stretches, but, anyone who watched every minute of that series knows that Varlamov didn\'t make it look pretty. Yet, he made the saves (for most of the first 6 games). Fleury is capable of getting into such a zone that he instills total confidence in those watching -- the 40+ save shutout against NJ this year comes to mind, or, the first round against the Flyers too. However, what he\'s also shown a knack for is making timely saves for his team when he\'s not in that zone.

Everyone is quick to bring up the fluky game 6 goal from last year where he sat on the puck and it squirted in -- usually mentioning how he might not be a \"big time\" goalie in the league. Yet, his performance in Game 5 (an elimination game, just like Game 6) gets overlooked because of what happened in the next game.

He really had his struggles against the Caps this year in the playoffs. I think that had a lot to do with how few shots he faced. And, most of the few shots that he saw were dangerous, difficult shots to handle. Yet, the Pens come out on top with two overtime wins and fought off the start by the Caps in game 7 thanks in large part to a big breakaway save by Fleury. So despite some struggles, he\'s still been able to come up with timely saves when the team needs it most -- we\'ve seen some glimpses of the \"it\" factor being present.

I realize he\'s got consistency issues. But, again, he\'s 24 years old. He relied on his athletic ability for years and he\'s frankly still learning that its okay to let the puck hit him (instead of having to \"save\" the puck all the time). Athletically, there are few that are superior. If you\'re the Pens, you take the guy with the high ceiling thanks to his athletic ability every single time. If Fleury puts it together, he\'ll be one of the elite. Even if he continually battles with consistency, he still has the potential to be good enough to win a Cup.

My money, though, is on Fleury eventually becoming one of the league\'s elite. At the end of this playoffs, he\'ll be up to 50 career playoff games -- the most by any goalie since the lockout. That is great experience that he ought to be able to draw upon moving forward. He\'s learning and improving many areas of his game each year. By the time he hits his \"goalie prime\" age of 27, I don\'t expect to see these kinds of posts.

Im not sure there is anything you said that I dont agree with. I never said Fleury couldnt be an elite goalie, I just said he isnt one RIGHT NOW. I said that hes about as talented as any goalie in this league. I just think people completely overrate him and where he is right now in his career.

It seems as though hes always given a pass. The same person who is quick to criticize a young goalie for one bad performance, will make excuses for Fleury and his bad performances. You said it yourself...hes only 24. However, this is his 5th year in the league. If he takes that next step at 27 like you say, he would have played 8 seasons before hitting that level. How many other goalies get an 8 yr window before we write him off? Kari Lehtonen has just as much talent as fleury and has only played 4 seasons, and people have already written him off long ago.

Lets not forget...every year for the past 3 years it was supposed to be \"the year\" for him to break out, and it still hasnt come. Three years ago he won 40 games but had an early playoff exit. Then everyone wondered if he could lead this team during playoffs. The next year he takes them to the cup finals and everyone says okay, no more question marks. Then during these playoffs hes been very average at best, with a few terrible games sprinkled in, and here we are all over again saying, \"hes young, wait til next year.\"

I also agree with you that its not how you look making the save, just as long as you save it. So, with that logic..I hope when youre making your list for nhl goalies, you hav Tim Thomas ranked a lot higher than fleury. He looks awkward on every save he makes, but he makes a lot more than Fleury and is much more consistent at it.

Again, I never questioned his talent or his ceiling. Im just pointing out that there is a big difference between what he is NOW and what he COULD BECOME. Im not sure many people differentiate it though. Personally, I dont think he will ever be on the same level as Luongo, Lundqvist, Brodeur etc...If he doesnt reach that level though, it wont be bc of lack of talent, bc he certainly has that high of a ceiling.

All very valid points.

I\'m admittedly a big Fleury guy, so, its tough for me to be completely objective about him. I think its fair of you to point out that age is really only worth looking at insofar as it represents experience. And in that sense, Fleury is \"older\" than his age makes him seem. Its fair to counter with that fact, and its tough to defense it on my end. I guess I would argue that he played on some awful teams there for a few years and as a result, the development opportunities were not as rich. Its easy to point to Luongo in Florida as an example of where that didn\'t matter, though.

If I\'m being honest, I am a bit disappointed that Fleury\'s game isn\'t at a higher level (consistently) yet. This playoffs has been pretty disappointing, because, he\'s had some real rough stretches. That being said, he faced the third and fourth best offensive teams in the league in back to back rounds and made it through.

Thomas is a great example of a goalie who isn\'t pretty but gets the job done. Fleury has to find that balance between playing the position instinctually an athletically and playing it positionally. If he can do that, we seem to agree, he\'s got limitless potential.

Perhaps its because I\'m in Pittsburgh, which is filled with \"new\" (putting it nicely) Pens fans these days who like to criticize MAF, but, I\'m not seeing him as overrated. That\'s probably why I\'m so quick to jump in to defend him. If you\'re saying that putting him with the league\'s elite is inappropriate, then we do agree. That would be overrating him.

[Kraftster]

Rangers0035 wrote:
I don\'t think you\'ll find many Pens fans that really know the game who gripe about Hossa as if he owed anything to the Pens. The part about the whole situation that (rightfully) irritates fans is the fact that he strung Shero along and pulled this 1-year Detroit deal out of nowhere on day 2 of free agency. By that time most of the other options were gone. Thankfully, Orpik hadn\'t made any decisions so the Pens were able to lock him down as a result of Hossa\'s decision. Still, it left the Pens with the likes of Satan and Fedotenko. Now, I\'m a Shero critic around these parts (Pittsburgh), and I often say to Hossa-haters and Shero-lovers that Shero, as an NHL GM has got to have a Plan B. But, this guy is a pretty solid GM who usually covers all his bases. I honestly believe that he thought he had Hossa. You can say that it wasn\'t Hossa\'s fault that RS got too confident in that fact, but, I think there is at least some truth to the notion that Hossa led the Pens (Shero) on to believe he was staying. That is what the griping is about.[/quote]

I dont think it goes that deep for the majority of the penguin fan base. I think its as simple as \"He didnt think we were good enough and he chose THEM over US\" I think most people view it more as a slap in the face than anything.

Im sure that Shero did think he had Hossa locked up to a new contract. However, Im not sure its for the same reasons you think. Just as you assume that hossa may have led them on, I assume that Shero just didnt think there was anyway he would turn down that big of a contract. (I say assume bc obviously neither of us were in the room with them and have no clue what really happened)
My guess is that he was just as shocked as anyone that a player today would turn down that kind of contract for less money and a 1yr deal somewhere else.[/quote]

Any negative feelings I have towards Hossa go that deep.

But, yeah, you do hear a lot of the \"slap in the face\" comments. I mean, truthfully, if he was trying to pick the best team for having a shot at the cup this year, he made the right decision. I think the Pens would have been one of the few groups in a second tier that he could have chosen, but, its hard to deny that Detroit was the best choice.

I can, however, see how the players would use that decision as motivation. I can see how the players might see it as a slap in the face. The fans, though, nah.

Good chat.

[GoalieGuild]

That was a great read on Fleury and both sides of his game.

For 24 years old and his pretty limited playoff experience, Fleury has done a very good job.

His rebound control is horrible in the playoffs compared to some of his hot streaks in the regular season. Why? Nerves and the pace of the game.

Going from the regular season to the post-season is kind of similar to going from the AHL to the NHL in the pre-season. It\'s that big of a jump.

And that is why I always firmly believe (because its true) that experience in the playoffs plays a major role in a goalie\'s success.

Fleury\'s skill set is one of the best in the league. It\'s how he prepares for shots that is more important to him and his development, not how he makes them.

He needs to be in a better \"set and ready\" position when the puck is coming at him in order to control those rebounds better. That\'s all about movement and balance.

The experience Fleury is gaining this post-season is going to make him that much better next year.

Elite skill set RIGHT NOW? Yes.

Elite understanding of the game RIGHT NOW? No.

Will he win a Stanley Cup before he\'s 30? Yes.