AM34 running away with the Hart

[2014olympicgold]

I'll borrow from Social Network in saying that if Matthews was two-dimensional, he'd be two-dimensional. You seem to suggest that since he's plus and a center he's two-dimensional. I think you're trying very hard to make a round peg - albeit one of the most perfect round pegs there is - also fit into a square hole. No one assesses Matthews' value based on his all-around game. Yes, he is plus. He, he blocks shots. But he's a sniper. If he was more than that, then it should shine through, and I'm saying it doesn't. It's not a knock. He's just not what you claim he is, at least if you ask most to give their views.

I never mentioned +/-, it's one of the worst ways to evaluate defensive ability (see Bouchard being +29), you mentioned +/-.

It's well known how good of a defensive player Matthews is. And it makes his scoring that much more impressive (to me) because how often he's starting an offensive rush in the Leafs slot covering the other teams top offensive threat.

I don't quite get what you're arguing. Matthews is a sniper that's one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Your argument would be like saying "McDavid is only a playmaker even though he can score. No one assess his value based on his scoring ability". It's almost like you're trying to find something besides Matthews lack of playmaking to knock him, and you chose Matthews 2nd best attribute.

[RizzeeDizzee]

I never mentioned +/-, it's one of the worst ways to evaluate defensive ability (see Bouchard being +29), you mentioned +/-.

It's well known how good of a defensive player Matthews is. And it makes his scoring that much more impressive (to me) because how often he's starting an offensive rush in the Leafs slot covering the other teams top offensive threat.

I don't quite get what you're arguing. Matthews is a sniper that's one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Your argument would be like saying "McDavid is only a playmaker even though he can score. No one assess his value based on his scoring ability". It's almost like you're trying to find something besides Matthews lack of playmaking to knock him, and you chose Matthews 2nd best attribute.

You say "it's well known how good a defensive player Matthews is." Proof please? He's never had lower than a 57% offensive zone starting percentage. He doesn't kill penalties. To give credit for your statement, I'd want to know the metrics on which it's based and to hear evidence of it indeed being "well known." I'm saying he's a sniper because the data unequivocally supports it.

Let me pause a moment to say that I respect everything you're saying. I don't want to come across as contentious or disrespectful. I think this is good, spirited debate, with everyone making their points and, in the process, perhaps getting an opportunity to see things through another lens.

[Grapes]

"He's one dimensional if you ignore the other dimension"

Thank you for this. I needed some levity today.

[Belexus75]

You say "it's well known how good a defensive player Matthews is." Proof please? He's never had lower than a 57% offensive zone starting percentage. He doesn't kill penalties. To give credit for your statement, I'd want to know the metrics on which it's based and to hear evidence of it indeed being "well known." I'm saying he's a sniper because the data unequivocally supports it.

Let me pause a moment to say that I respect everything you're saying. I don't want to come across as contentious or disrespectful. I think this is good, spirited debate, with everyone making their points and, in the process, perhaps getting an opportunity to see things through another lens.

really? every time any poster disagrees with you , you will post many times just to prove them wrong...and i for example rarely agree with your takes...

[Belexus75]

The main reason that Matthews for Hart argument is dismissed by many here is the fact that he plays for the Leafs...if he played for any other team he would have way more support. Last i checked is the name at the back not log at the front that matters for this one....

[zambronies]

The main reason that Matthews for Hart argument is dismissed by many here is the fact that he plays for the Leafs...if he played for any other team he would have way more support. Last i checked is the name at the back not log at the front that matters for this one....

The Leafs are one of my favorite teams and I own Marner/Rielly in my fantasy league. I would love to acquire Matthews and have tried hard multiple times. He’s a great player and phenomenal fantasy asset.

However, he is not on my list for Hart. I simply think other players this year have done more. Matthews is still 31 points behind the league leader in points. That is significant. In most years, this would be a Hart season for Matthews. Unfortunately for Matthews, Kucherov and MacKinnon have shown more Hart worthy seasons.

Just because someone says other players have put up better seasons does not make them a Leaf’s hater.

[Belexus75]

The Leafs are one of my favorite teams and I own Marner/Rielly in my fantasy league. I would love to acquire Matthews and have tried hard multiple times. He’s a great player and phenomenal fantasy asset.

However, he is not on my list for Hart. I simply think other players this year have done more. Matthews is still 31 points behind the league leader in points. That is significant. In most years, this would be a Hart season for Matthews. Unfortunately for Matthews, Kucherov and MacKinnon have shown more Hart worthy seasons.

Just because someone says other players have put up better seasons does not make them a Leaf’s hater.

thats why i said "many" not "all"...leafs hater on these boards is very visible...not just in this post.

BTW, personally i also dont think he deserves to be in same conversation with other 3, once he hits 70 i dont think other 3 deserve to be in conversation with him. If Hart was voted based on its definition, maybe thats different story, but its not, it has not been for long time.

[zambronies]

thats why i said "many" not "all"...leafs hater on these boards is very visible...not just in this post.

BTW, personally i also dont think he deserves to be in same conversation with other 3, once he hits 70 i dont think other 3 deserve to be in conversation with him. If Hart was voted based on its definition, maybe thats different story, but its not, it has not been for long time.

Totally understand and can appreciate your take. Personally, even if he hits 70 goals and is 30+ points behind guys like Kuch and MacKinnon, I still don’t think Matthews is deserving of the Hart. But hey, that’s just me!

[RizzeeDizzee]

really? every time any poster disagrees with you , you will post many times just to prove them wrong...and i for example rarely agree with your takes...

Thanks for an utterly meaningless post offering no intelligent input whatsoever

[blayze]

I'll borrow from Social Network in saying that if Matthews was two-dimensional, he'd be two-dimensional. You seem to suggest that since he's plus and a center he's two-dimensional. I think you're trying very hard to make a round peg - albeit one of the most perfect round pegs there is - also fit into a square hole. No one assesses Matthews' value based on his all-around game. Yes, he is plus. He, he blocks shots. But he's a sniper. If he was more than that, then it should shine through, and I'm saying it doesn't. It's not a knock. He's just not what you claim he is, at least if you ask most to give their views.

Gotta say I disagree with you. I get the impression you're watching that stat sheet a lot more than you're watching actual AM34 games otherwise you wouldn't be saying this stuff.

AM34 is a solid, solid 2 way player, big body, knows how to use it, knows how to hold onto the puck and control possession, decent passer - but why pass it when you're the best shooter in the world? Just cause he's a godly sniper, doesn't mean he's not good at other stuff.

AM34 is not Hull/Bure/Ovie who are the type of one dimensional WINGERS you are talking about...

[Axeman33]

It will be interesting to see what happens as the season winds down. He's got 7 games left with 7 goals to reach 70. It's not unthinkable to see him scoring a goal per game down the stretch.

If he's sitting at 67 goals with 2 games left (B2B's vs FLA and TB), do they sit him or risk injury and let him play out for the 70. These guys always say it's not about personal goals or stats, and all about the team when talking to the press, but you have to think there's something personal here for Matthews. You know he wants it even if he won't say it publicly. Who wouldn't?

I cant imagine them sitting him if he's not there with a couple games left but who knows.

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thats why i said "many" not "all"...leafs hater on these boards is very visible...not just in this post.

BTW, personally i also dont think he deserves to be in same conversation with other 3, once he hits 70 i dont think other 3 deserve to be in conversation with him. If Hart was voted based on its definition, maybe thats different story, but its not, it has not been for long time.

To be fair, the Leaf homers are very visible too.

[2014olympicgold]

You say "it's well known how good a defensive player Matthews is." Proof please? He's never had lower than a 57% offensive zone starting percentage. He doesn't kill penalties. To give credit for your statement, I'd want to know the metrics on which it's based and to hear evidence of it indeed being "well known." I'm saying he's a sniper because the data unequivocally supports it.

Let me pause a moment to say that I respect everything you're saying. I don't want to come across as contentious or disrespectful. I think this is good, spirited debate, with everyone making their points and, in the process, perhaps getting an opportunity to see things through another lens.

65.5% is very low for the best goal scorer in the league, who's on the PP for 75% of the PPtime. For comparison:
MacKinnon - 73.0%
Kucherov - 73.0%
McDavid - 68.9%
Reinhart - 57.2% (Winger, Barkov as the center)
Hyman - 71.3%
Pastrnak - 68.7%

Then 5-on-5 oZS% is better because "ALL" includes PP:
Matthews - 57.8%
MacKinnon - 66.2%
Kucherov - 64.5%
McDavid - 62.4%
Reinhart - 51.3% (Winger, Barkov as the center. Reinhart is trusted in the dzone a lot though)
Hyman - 61.1%
Pastrnak - 59.2%

But defensive numbers are more visual. Just watch a game of Matthews and notice how low he is, how often he's actually covering defensively. How many times he picks the puck up behind the Leafs net while a battle is happening. His takeaway numbers, the lack of giveaways. Defensive stats are hard because a guy like Matthews who is relied on more defensively will be on the ice for more goals against possibilities than MacKinnon/McDavid/Kuch, so a full number is going to look worse.

Defensive stats are a much more visual thing, which is why it's typically overlooked because it's hard for an average person to watch enough games across the NHL to see that Reinhart is actually pretty good defensively for a winger. But you could argue it's because of Barkov. Or that Hyman is pretty good defensively, but when he plays with McDavid, he's not leaned on defensively because his partner sucks defensively.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the season winds down. He's got 7 games left with 7 goals to reach 70. It's not unthinkable to see him scoring a goal per game down the stretch.

If he's sitting at 67 goals with 2 games left (B2B's vs FLA and TB), do they sit him or risk injury and let him play out for the 70. These guys always say it's not about personal goals or stats, and all about the team when talking to the press, but you have to think there's something personal here for Matthews. You know he wants it even if he won't say it publicly. Who wouldn't?

I cant imagine them sitting him if he's not there with a couple games left but who knows.

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To be fair, the Leaf homers are very visible too.

I've never understood the full healthy scratch of a star in the final stretch unless there's a legit injury....unless you face teams like Florida and Tampa B2B lol. I would typically have Matthews playing, but 5-on-5 minutes would be a 4th/3rd liner, and then PP time. But with Florida and Tampa...they're too dirty to chance that.

[Belexus75]

It will be interesting to see what happens as the season winds down. He's got 7 games left with 7 goals to reach 70. It's not unthinkable to see him scoring a goal per game down the stretch.

If he's sitting at 67 goals with 2 games left (B2B's vs FLA and TB), do they sit him or risk injury and let him play out for the 70. These guys always say it's not about personal goals or stats, and all about the team when talking to the press, but you have to think there's something personal here for Matthews. You know he wants it even if he won't say it publicly. Who wouldn't?

I cant imagine them sitting him if he's not there with a couple games left but who knows.

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To be fair, the Leaf homers are very visible too.

agreed!

[RizzeeDizzee]

I concur that the prospect of 70 goals will bring added enjoyment to the remaining games. Whether it will move the needle on the Hart conversation, I think I can safely say that many have brought here very insightful, albeit differing, viewpoints. I'm happy to continue the debate if folks want, or we can just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Grin]

According to Hockey Reference, Matthews has the most defensive point shares of any forward on the Leafs, and it's not close. And I'm a Habs fan, lol.
But MacKinnon, Kucherov, Matthews and Hughes are all very close in overall point shares. Any would be a great choice.