Steelers @ Bengals - wilcard matchup discussion

[PenguinHunter]

Like you mentioned it's a bigger picture than just one game. These types of players, and the baggage they bring with them on and off the field, have dogged Marvin Lewis through pretty much his entire tenure in Cincy. If this isn't the final straw, it appears it won't cost him his job, it has to be the final warning if your the GM and owner. How much more of this are you willing to endure hoping for playoff success that hasn't come?

Sure the Bengals are much better off than they were before Marvin Lewis, there's still plenty of room for improvement and they have talent. I'm not sure he's the guy to make the adjustments and to get the most out of his players to take that next step. He doesn't seem to give two good damns if his players are running amuck and monkeywrenching things by being boneheads and thugs. Undisciplined play has been their achilles heel and Saturday night was just the crown jewel moment.

Would fines/discipline from upper management be a way around this. Keep the coaches job and let upper management hand out fines for these stupid penalties? I have no idea if this would work, or if it is even allowed...

[NoWayOut]

Would fines/discipline from upper management be a way around this. Keep the coaches job and let upper management hand out fines for these stupid penalties? I have no idea if this would work, or if it is even allowed...

Teams can impose their own fines and suspensions, but for guys like Burfict and Jones fines won't cut it. Jones has been fined and moved from team to team after wearing out his welcome with stunts like the other night, and yet he keeps on. Now he's out there yapping about how Brown was faking a concussion, as if somehow that excuses everything that happened. Yes, he had a point that Joey Porter had no business on the field at that moment or any other really, but it still doesn't excuse losing your composure and taking the bait. Story of Pacman's career. There were red flags about Burfict's character in college as I recall also. They are talented players, especially Burfict, but at what point does their baggage outweigh their skill?

In the end they have to find a way to change the culture in the locker room. Whether that's a coaching change, better homework on players prior to the draft or signing as a free agent, or both is something they have to decide. The evidence is there to suggest as long as Marvin Lewis is the coach these sorts of things are going to continue because he runs a lax locker room without much in the way of accountability.

[dejeanneret]

Like you mentioned it's a bigger picture than just one game. These types of players, and the baggage they bring with them on and off the field, have dogged Marvin Lewis through pretty much his entire tenure in Cincy. If this isn't the final straw, it appears it won't cost him his job, it has to be the final warning if your the GM and owner. How much more of this are you willing to endure hoping for playoff success that hasn't come?

Sure the Bengals are much better off than they were before Marvin Lewis, there's still plenty of room for improvement and they have talent. I'm not sure he's the guy to make the adjustments and to get the most out of his players to take that next step. He doesn't seem to give two good damns if his players are running amuck and monkeywrenching things by being boneheads and thugs. Undisciplined play has been their achilles heel and Saturday night was just the crown jewel moment.

There's certainly a part of me that agrees with this. But the other side of the coin is the fact that Marvin Lewis does not (I think) have much of a role, if any, in assembling the roster. In that case, he's essentially left to utilize the players he's been given. And he's been given more than his share of bad apples to manage over the years.

I'm not sure exactly how fault should be apportioned here. But it seems to me that "coaching" (or lack thereof) isn't the issue with some of these clowns. For some, I would say it matters little what Lewis (or any other coach) does. They're proven to be totally out of control -- un-coachable, even -- on a semi-regular basis and it's ultimately the responsibility of the GM (or owner) to say enough, and jettison them from the club -- talent be damned.

A player like Greg Hardy is a shining example of the concept at play where one organization (Carolina) gets it, and another (Dallas) clearly does not.

[PenguinHunter]

Teams can impose their own fines and suspensions, but for guys like Burfict and Jones fines won't cut it. Jones has been fined and moved from team to team after wearing out his welcome with stunts like the other night, and yet he keeps on. Now he's out there yapping about how Brown was faking a concussion, as if somehow that excuses everything that happened. Yes, he had a point that Joey Porter had no business on the field at that moment or any other really, but it still doesn't excuse losing your composure and taking the bait. Story of Pacman's career. There were red flags about Burfict's character in college as I recall also. They are talented players, especially Burfict, but at what point does their baggage outweigh their skill?

In the end they have to find a way to change the culture in the locker room. Whether that's a coaching change, better homework on players prior to the draft or signing as a free agent, or both is something they have to decide. The evidence is there to suggest as long as Marvin Lewis is the coach these sorts of things are going to continue because he runs a lax locker room without much in the way of accountability.

So basically they need to watch the movie 'Draft Day' and learn from it?

[NoWayOut]

There's certainly a part of me that agrees with this. But the other side of the coin is the fact that Marvin Lewis does not (I think) have much of a role, if any, in assembling the roster. In that case, he's essentially left to utilize the players he's been given. And he's been given more than his share of bad apples to manage over the years.

I'm not sure exactly how fault should be apportioned here. But it seems to me that "coaching" (or lack thereof) isn't the issue with some of these clowns. For some, I would say it matters little what Lewis (or any other coach) does. They're proven to be totally out of control -- un-coachable, even -- on a semi-regular basis and it's ultimately the responsibility of the GM (or owner) to say enough, and jettison them from the club -- talent be damned.

A player like Greg Hardy is a shining example of the concept at play where one organization (Carolina) gets it, and another (Dallas) clearly does not.

Good point, they've gotten themselves into this mess as an organization, not just one person. I don't follow the Bengals that closely so I'm not sure how much input Lewis has on personnel decisions. I would think he's got a voice in it, but to what extent though I don't know. As a Cowboys fan, ugh don't get me started on Hardy and Jones. It's almost a enough to make me trade my Cowboys gear for Texans gear, but that's another story.

But Jones and the Cowboys are a good example of what we're discussing. Those Super Bowl teams under Jimmy Johnson were full of flawed characters, but a strong coach, like Jimmy was then, was able to corral them and get them to play with enough control and composure to win and not shoot themselves in the foot. If your going to employ players like Burfict and Pacman you need a coach that can handle them and I'm just not sure Marvin Lewis is cut out for that.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically they need to watch the movie 'Draft Day' and learn from it?

I guess so. I never watched the movie myself.

[PenguinHunter]

Good point, they've gotten themselves into this mess as an organization, not just one person. I don't follow the Bengals that closely so I'm not sure how much input Lewis has on personnel decisions. I would think he's got a voice in it, but to what extent though I don't know. As a Cowboys fan, ugh don't get me started on Hardy and Jones. It's almost a enough to make me trade my Cowboys gear for Texans gear, but that's another story.

But Jones and the Cowboys are a good example of what we're discussing. Those Super Bowl teams under Jimmy Johnson were full of flawed characters, but a strong coach, like Jimmy was then, was able to corral them and get them to play with enough control and composure to win and not shoot themselves in the foot. If your going to employ players like Burfict and Pacman you need a coach that can handle them and I'm just not sure Marvin Lewis is cut out for that.

- - - Updated - - -



I guess so. I never watched the movie myself.

Well I don't want to spoil it for you. But its a movie based on doing research before the NFL draft. great watch if you like the behind the scenes kind of stuff!

[NoWayOut]

Well I don't want to spoil it for you. But its a movie based on doing research before the NFL draft. great watch if you like the behind the scenes kind of stuff!

In that case yeah. I think teams already do quite a bit of research into potential draftees, it's more what info they're looking for. Injury history and game tape are the natural things, but in this day and age teams are looking harder at character. With the explosion of social media there are a lot more eyes on players off the field and teams risk blowback for those actions. It's less to do with not wanting to associate with less than savory people, but more to do with protecting their "brand" and the PR and financial repercussions from outraged fans.

It goes back to the risk/reward decision. How much is a team willing to gamble on talent if they know there will be loads of negatives attached to the player? The Bengals have been pretty loose with what they'll accept in the name of winning over the last 7 or 8 years.

[PenguinHunter]

Hey Boom.... are you going to start threads for the Divisional weekend? Looking forward to getting the discussions going? Go Panthers!