Philadelphia Flyers

[Flyer Fan]

I might as well add this rant too:

Everyone's talking about the JvR for Schenn rumors as if the Flyers HAVE to do something to replace Pronger, and that JvR's the obvious candidate.

My take on it is that it's wishful thinking on the part of Leafs fans.

First of all, the Flyers are not in a panicked, desperate "we have to do something!" place.

Pronger's longterm status is unknown, he could be back for the playoffs or could not, ...he could be back next season or could not, ...they DON'T KNOW YET.

Pronger's 5Million cap hit will be there next season either way, as will Timonen's 6Million, Coburn's 4.2 Million, and Meszaros' 4 Million.

Carle's scheduled to be a ufa but he's here this year.

Add them up, even without Pronger: Coburn, Timonen, Meszaros, Carle = 4 top four defensemen.

Where the Flyers have been getting hurt, and where they need to improve is on the third pairing.

Coburn and Timonen are doing just fine as the top pairing.

Meszaros and Carle would be just fine as the second pairing, but needed to be broken up to add stability and experience to the third pairing due to the failure's of Walker and Lilja which meant the inclusion of the rookie Gustafsson into the mix prior to Pronger's being injured.

Unfortunately Gustafsson was injured, but the Flyers really like him and believe he's an upgrade over Lilja or Walker.

Pronger's injury meant they still had a slot open, but both Walker and Lilja dropped the ball again, and have now been passed over by Bourdon (who's been paired with Carle on the second pairing, and looked solid), and arguably Marshall (who's been paired with Meszaros) and it's the Marshall/Meszaros pairing that's been hurting them.

The Flyers feel that Gustafsson's game is a better match for Meszaros, and that now that he's back, the unit will be improved, ...they would still like to add a more experience defenseman, ...but they are not as is being reported, scrambling desperately to fill a gaping roster hole.

This was a defensive unit built with incredible depth, so yeah losing Pronger's a blow, but a top for of Timonen/Coburn/Carle/Meszaros still stacks up pretty well against most of the league.

More importantly, if the Flyers are looking to improve that top four, the twenty two year old Schenn would offer only a minimal upgrade over what Meszaros could give them in that role (once he's not needed on that third pairing)

Conversely, adding a guy like Gilbert gives them a guy who's a helluva lot cheaper to bring in, who doesn't require cap space or tagging space, ...who's higher level of experience/hockey smarts likely translates into a more reliable contributor/option at playoff time and late in games, ...and who could be slotted onto that third pairing, scratched to give one of the prospects if desired, then either re-signed or discarded once they've had a chance to ascertain Pronger's status, and guage the progress of Gustafsson and Bourdon. (and their inexpensive entry level contracts)

As far as Schenn being a future Norris or franchise guy, and leading the league in hits and all that other crap folks are throwing around to make the case that he's worth JvR:

The Flyers have been down this road before, ...when they traded for Edmonton's Dan McGillis who also led the league in hits, was a shut down defenseman, and had the potential to be a franchise guy.

Defenseman, particularly young defensive defenseman, are a very volitile commodity, if you take a good at other teams rosters, you can probably find about a dozen young defensive defenseman who came into the league at a young age, played more wisely than their years, and were predicted to be future studs despite their limited skill, mobility, and hockey sense.

What makes a guy like Pronger, or even Suter so much more valuable is that they're the finished product, ...the volatility has been taken out of the equation, ...the team acquiring him KNOWS they're getting Chris Pronger, not Dan McGillis, or Wade Redden, Bryan Allen, Mike Komisarek, Brad Ference, Brad Stuart, Jay Bouwmeester, Cam Barker, Barret Jackman or any of the other slew of top ten draft pick "future franchise defenseman" of similar skill set and pedigree who turned out to be nice players, but far short of their predicted impact.

Maybe for a rebuilding team it's worth the gamble for the potential, but on a team that views itself as a contender, the combination of a power forward who was at time dominating against the Bruins in last season's playoffs, and a smart experienced, inexpensive, veteran defensive defenseman is much more valuable than the inexperienced twenty two year old defenseman with upside.

[Flyer Fan]

Any Bryz tonight you think? And what to do with Rinaldo?

I haven't seen anything yet on Bryz/Bobrovsky as starter but ill post it if i find it.

Rinaldo's a more interesting subject.

I mentioned earlier that Laviolette was using Harry Z on the fourth line with Read and Couturier, ...but there's been an interesting conversation taking place on the local talk radio station talking about how in the game vs. the Islanders the other night, ...the Flyers had no enforcer in the lineup with both Shelley and Rinaldo scratched, ...and that it showed when Talbot took an elbow to the face and no Flyer responded.

The point some of the commentators were making is that the Flyers are going to have to include someone in their lineup to handle the role against other eastern confrence teams which do have an enforcer in their lineup.

What makes the conversation even more interesting is that at the same time Mike Richards went to the defense of Kopitar after he took a hit in LA, ...so the commentators are pointing to that quality as being part of what Richards brought to the table, and suggesting that it may be lacking on the Flyers without Rinaldo or Shelley in the lineup.

It's interesting, I think ultimately Rinaldo winds up back in the lineup and Harry Z winds up in the press box or the AHL.

but it's pure speculation on my part.

[lektrix]

I haven't seen anything yet on Bryz/Bobrovsky as starter but ill post it if i find it.

Rinaldo's a more interesting subject.

I mentioned earlier that Laviolette was using Harry Z on the fourth line with Read and Couturier, ...but there's been an interesting conversation taking place on the local talk radio station talking about how in the game vs. the Islanders the other night, ...the Flyers had no enforcer in the lineup with both Shelley and Rinaldo scratched, ...and that it showed when Talbot took an elbow to the face and no Flyer responded.

The point some of the commentators were making is that the Flyers are going to have to include someone in their lineup to handle the role against other eastern confrence teams which do have an enforcer in their lineup.

What makes the conversation even more interesting is that at the same time Mike Richards went to the defense of Kopitar after he took a hit in LA, ...so the commentators are pointing to that quality as being part of what Richards brought to the table, and suggesting that it may be lacking on the Flyers without Rinaldo or Shelley in the lineup.

It's interesting, I think ultimately Rinaldo winds up back in the lineup and Harry Z winds up in the press box or the AHL.

but it's pure speculation on my part.

It makes sense, as most teams have at least one enforcer on the team. You almost certainly need one against divisional rivalries as things can get heated up.

[Flyer Fan]

Bryzgalov has been announced as the starter


JvR out with a concussion
Rinaldo likely back in the lineup

[Flyer Fan]

Bobrovsky's already been given the nod to start tomorrow night against the Islanders.

It'll be interesting to see whether the Flyers go after Staios for the elbow to Talbot the last time they played, ...particularly with this rematch coming so soon after the incident.

During that game Laviolette had neither Rinaldo or Shelley in the the lineup, so that in itself will be an interesting decision to watch unfold.

[Flyer Fan]

-Shelley made the lineup. Laviolette opted for Harry Z instead of Rinaldo (who's still slightly dinged with a sore neck from last week), ...but neither saw more than 5 minutes of icetime, and weren't a factor in a game in which the bad guy (Staios) was scratched, and the Flyers came out flat.

-Giroux's really pressing, trying to do to much, Jagr's struggling as well, Hartnell looks decent, ...but the line is I believe a -18 in the last six games, not generating many chances, giving up turnovers, ...particularly high offensive zone turnovers that lead to odd man rushes.

-Jagr's Jagr, and his game doesn't seem to change much, just going through a stretch where the results aren't great, ...kind of balancing the stretch he went through earlier where the results were kind of better than his play.

Giroux on the other hand looks like he could benefit from a few games with a different set of linemates, and a more simplified dump and chase gameplan. (well, at least to me anyway, i'm sure others disagree)

Giroux's being asked to do an awful lot for this team, and has done it, but right now he's trying to do too much, the all-star break's probably coming at a good time for him.

-Timonen's another guy that probably benefits, ...he's been Mr. Everything for the team, even strength, pp, pk, the go to shutdown guy, and the go to offensive catalyst, ...and with the Flyers third pairing struggling so badly, he's seen a ton of tough minutes and looked a little gassed last night.

The good news is that Bourdon has been solid, E.G. is looking good now that he's back, and Meszaros is getting on track, so the Flyers suddenly have six dependable defenders to spread the minutes around to, which will take some of the load off Timonen going down the road.

-Courturier's continuing to grow offensively, he's on an incredible roll, and still playing great defensively, ...I'm thinking with the way he's playing, he's about two weeks away from injecting himself into the Calder trophy conversations.

He seems to have firmly established himself in front of Schenn as the third line center, (and Schenn's playing well too) ...although Schenn was still getting some shifts there.

-I saw a quote from Paul Homgren that the Flyers are working on getting Voracek to shoot more often. They feel he's gotten a reputation around the league as a "pass first" player, and that opponents are successfully cheating on him because of it.

-Pronger's wife was interviewed yesterday, and says that he's not doing well, ...having good days and bad days, that they're going through a lot of trauma right now, and that they're doing a lot of praying.

They've apparently launched a clothing line, and yesterday was some sort of fashion show for it. Pronger was having one of the bad days, and wasn't able to attend. Doesn't sound good at all.

- There's a thread in the forum about Crosby having turned to an unorthodox approach for treatment of his concussion symptoms, ...I can understand how frustrating it must be for these guys, and why they would do that, ...there seems to be so much uncertainty regarding the treatment, with the accepted medical treatment boiling down to: "give it time and hope it heals itself", ...no guarantees, no timetables, no control.

I can understand why an athlete with a limited window of opportunity to ply his craft, and who makes his living controlling his body, would be looking for a better answer, ...imho it's more about "hoping" for a better answer/better results and doing SOMETHING than it is about "believing" in what they're trying.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Pronger tries the same thing.

[TheRook]

I agree with you. I think Giroux is holding the stick too tight right now trying to force himself out of this slump. I think a few games with different lines would do them and the team some good.

All the best to Pronger, i hope he starts feeling better for health reasons more than getting him back.

[joos]

Sorry if this question has been asked already but any insight on Couturier going forward? (1-3 yrs)

He has been a pretty pleasant surprise this season... chipping in offensively here and there and basically making the team as an 18 yr. I know Philly has kinda used him more as a PK guy but do you see him stepping up on one of the 2 scoring lines any time in the future?

Is he more of a 60-70 pt guy or 75+ pt guy? Or more of a 2-way forward and simply he might get stuck in that role on Philly (Kinda like J.Staal)

Thanks!

[Flyer Fan]

Sorry if this question has been asked already but any insight on Couturier going forward? (1-3 yrs)

He has been a pretty pleasant surprise this season... chipping in offensively here and there and basically making the team as an 18 yr. I know Philly has kinda used him more as a PK guy but do you see him stepping up on one of the 2 scoring lines any time in the future?

Is he more of a 60-70 pt guy or 75+ pt guy? Or more of a 2-way forward and simply he might get stuck in that role on Philly (Kinda like J.Staal)

Thanks!

It's funny you brought this up, just this morning a friend of mine was referencing an article (I didn't read it) claiming that the Flyers were hoping to get Blair Betts back, ...the idea was that Betts could assume the role Couturier's filling on the pk and as 4th line center, and then Couturier (who the Flyers feel can play wing), would be shifted to the wing, ...and that would give them the luxury of being able to trade one of their more established wingers for a defenseman.

Betts' knee is apparently not responding though (and he's dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome as well) and Holmgren says he doesn't think he'll be able to play, so they're looking at him in a coaching/scouting role.

The point is, that the Flyers feel Couturier has the offensive ability to play in their top six as a winger.

He's locked out at center because of Giroux's stardom, and Briere's unmovable contract, ...but he's recently shown growth in his offensive game, and has simply been too good to be relegated to the fourth line, ...he's been centering the third line the last few games, he's been putting up points, and like i mentioned in the post above, ...if he keeps it up he'll soon be entering into the Calder race.

I see him ultimately as 75 point, two way, second line center.

There's been a lot of rumors about JvR moved (which I don't buy), but also the Flyers have approached Jagr about an extension and have been rebuffed, ...and they have Voracek scheduled for restricted free agency.

Jagr claims he wants to wait and see how his body holds up over the course of the season before signing another contract, ...which could be true, or could be code for "Ville Leino got 4.5 Million, I want to see what I can get in free agency after a good year"

So his return is uncertain.

and Voracek, who has the same agent as Jagr, figures to command a salary of 3 million+, and could possibly price himself out of town as well.

If someone's moved, or doesn't come back, Couturier's in the top six, but even as a "third line center" he figures to be playing with two of Schenn/Read/Simmonds or Voracek which gives him a lot more offensive talent to line up with than Staal gets, and makes that third line a "two way" line rather than the traditional "checking line"

Lastly, on a team with Giroux/Briere/JvR/Hartnell/Jagr/and Voracek, ...a defensively responsible forward who can play with them without stifling their offensive abilities figures to get a shot sooner rather than later. Talbot's been getting time in the top six for that very reason, ...as Couturier continues to gain Laviolette's trust, his role will increase even further.

I'm rambling, but I hope that at least makes SOME sense!

[Ballsakic]

Good job Bryz and team.

[Atomic Wedgy]

Just over 3 minutes of icetime for Jagr. I missed the game, does anyone see what happened?

[jeffl97]

Just over 3 minutes of icetime for Jagr. I missed the game, does anyone see what happened?

Was watching, but not paying too much attention (on laptop + other things) but word was LBI (probably groin) DTD for now, haven't heard much else.

[Flyer Fan]

Was watching, but not paying too much attention (on laptop + other things) but word was LBI (probably groin) DTD for now, haven't heard much else.

Yep, that's the word: Groin dtd


and ...Rinaldo dtd UBI


and ...Briere, ...wait for it:

concussion out indefinitely.


Sesito, and Holmstrom recalled from the Phantoms.

Schenn slides into Jagr's slot on the first line with Giroux and Hartnell,

and Sean Couturier is your new (temporary) second line center.

[lektrix]

Rinaldo hurt again? I keep waiting for this guy to fight against tough teams and divisional rivalries and he just refuses to!!!

[Flyer Fan]

Yeah, Rinaldo originally hurt his neck against Chicago, and tried to play, and I'm not sure whether he reinjured it yesterday, or just found out he wasn't ready to play yet.