Ottawa Senators

[JagrBomb]

Uh, just last year with Spezza the Stars missed the playoffs and the Sens made it. So he had a better shot last year with the Sens, better shot this year with the Stars. The Sens have been far more successful than Dallas over the last decade in terms of playoff appearances (both don't win much when they make it) so the Sens "missing the playoffs yet again" is a pretty ignorant comment.

Regardless "better shot at the cup" is not why Spezza wasn't going to re-sign in Ottawa and it's not why he signed in Dallas. He wanted to go to a low-pressure environment and be a #2 guy because he can't handle being the #1 in a big market.

i wonder if spezza had anything to do with the sens being successful in the past 10 years?

i don't think there's any point trying to convince you that Dallas is going to be more successful than the Sens going forward, which is the pretty much the only thing that matters.

and i don't see how that last comment is relevant to the fact that the sens lost the spezza trade. just because you dislike a player doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a better return.

the deal was already bad the moment it was made, and then chiasson not developing as expected made it worse. i can't see how you can argue with that but i suppose if you feel the sens are better off without spezza despite the return then there's no point continuing this convo.

[Big Ev]

i wonder if spezza had anything to do with the sens being successful in the past 10 years?

i don't think there's any point trying to convince you that Dallas is going to be more successful than the Sens going forward, which is the pretty much the only thing that matters.

and i don't see how that last comment is relevant to the fact that the sens lost the spezza trade. just because you dislike a player doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a better return.

the deal was already bad the moment it was made, and then chiasson not developing as expected made it worse. i can't see how you can argue with that but i suppose if you feel the sens are better off without spezza despite the return then there's no point continuing this convo.

I never said they weren't going to me more successful than the Sens going . I said that was NOT the reason why Spezza wanted a change of scenery.

They couldn't have gotten a better return. They got the return they got. They didn't win or lose the trade. They got a better return but he rejected the trade to Nashville. End of story. Not sure why people always think a magical better return is out there. He was and is a declining asset (60 point player at best now) who had a bad injury history and had a HIGH cap hit. There was not a big market for him.

[JagrBomb]

I never said they weren't going to me more successful than the Sens going . I said that was NOT the reason why Spezza wanted a change of scenery.

They couldn't have gotten a better return. They got the return they got. They didn't win or lose the trade. They got a better return but he rejected the trade to Nashville. End of story. Not sure why people always think a magical better return is out there. He was and is a declining asset (60 point player at best now) who had a bad injury history and had a HIGH cap hit. There was not a big market for him.

of course the sens lost the trade. everyone can see that but you because you wouldn't think the sens lost the trade if they got a 5th round pick for Spezza.

[Big Ev]

of course the sens lost the trade. everyone can see that but you because you wouldn't think the sens lost the trade if they got a 5th round pick for Spezza.

You're one of those simpleton fans who thinks every trade has to have a winner and a loser. In your mind, literally any team who trades a pending free agent for a pick at the deadline loses the trade. That's what you're saying here. Treat Spezza as if he was a deadline deal because it was almost the same thing. They got more than they would have at the deadline. Eric Staal was traded TO THE EAST for two seconds and a prospect. Virtually the same trade, and that's TO THE EAST where the value would be higher.

[JagrBomb]

You're one of those simpleton fans who thinks every trade has to have a winner and a loser. In your mind, literally any team who trades a pending free agent for a pick at the deadline loses the trade. That's what you're saying here. Treat Spezza as if he was a deadline deal because it was almost the same thing. They got more than they would have at the deadline. Eric Staal was traded TO THE EAST for two seconds and a prospect. Virtually the same trade, and that's TO THE EAST where the value would be higher.

lol you're impossible to reason with. spezza was traded in the summer with a full year left on his contract, and now you're treating him like a deadline rental to justify his return. If Nashville was offering hornqvist +, i think it's quite clear teams did not see him as just a rental.

i did a quick search on murray's thoughts post-trade.

Well I've said all along you don't get equal value for a player who's a skilled point-getter.

so we've already established Murray knows he didn't get equal value, hence Dallas got better value.

Chiasson is a young, big, strong guy that has big potential we think

if Dallas got better value at the time of the trade, and Chiasson didn't pan out since then, i think it's pretty safe to say the sens return is even less than it was at the time of the trade.

i'm not surprised one of the clearest example of a sens trade that didn't work out isn't seen by you as a trade the sens got a bad return on.

[Big Ev]

lol you're impossible to reason with. spezza was traded in the summer with a full year left on his contract, and now you're treating him like a deadline rental to justify his return. If Nashville was offering hornqvist +, i think it's quite clear teams did not see him as just a rental.

i did a quick search on murray's thoughts post-trade.



so we've already established Murray knows he didn't get equal value, hence Dallas got better value.



if Dallas got better value at the time of the trade, and Chiasson didn't pan out since then, i think it's pretty safe to say the sens return is even less than it was at the time of the trade.

i'm not surprised one of the clearest example of a sens trade that didn't work out isn't seen by you as a trade the sens got a bad return on.

Again it "worked out", not for better or worse, because they were going to lose the player and he requested a trade. It's like when people said the Heatley trade was shit yet it turned out to be fine. And that was even more than what Spezza returned. Like I said of course they didn't get "equal value" in terms of the player vs player/pick return. That's not the point. The point is you are never going to get the same type of player in return when you make a deal like that. Look at the Kovalchuk trade. You're arguing something I never even said. Of course Dallas got more pure value for the present. They had to trade Spezza so they needed to get whatever they were gonna get. Again your logic would lead people to believe that you think every current player for futures trade is shit. Futures are futures, you don't know what they're gonna become.

I'm not arguing with you about this anymore because it's not worth my time. I know the facts and don't treat trades like the ones made in video games or fantasy hockey.

[larrylintz]

Murray made it clear through his media conduits that he wasn't trading to an eastern team, and if Murray DID want to have a stronger bidding war i guarantee you 100% Bruce Garrioch et al would have been writing that in fact it was wide-open, Sens would consider trading Spezza to Leafs, Habs, etc etc. People in power, whether they are GMs or politicians, use the media to send each other signals. Murray can't be cold-calling GMs offering Spezza, a first-year fantasy player knows that hurts your bargaining power. Reporters, meanwhile, just want something fresh to write each day so they will take any scraps they can get, and are therefore willing partners in this little game. Of course i can't "prove" this, there's no tape or transcript of Murray or one of his assistants whispering in Garrioch's ear. But it's obvioius.

But I don't really see the point of arguing with you Ev, you showed your hand a few pages ago on this thread by saying you trust Sens management 99% of the time (which was obvious anyway, but i was surprised you acknowledged this). Ergo, your argument is inevitably going to be the company line, and you can dress it up with anything you want but we know you are always going to defend Murray. You may be right in any given argument, but you would have more credibility if you showed a little more objectivity.
And i wouldn't have posted this had you not called the other fellow a simpleton. That's a bit over the top.

- - - Updated - - -

Now on to something more positive: http://www.dobberprospects.com/francis-perron/

[bondon]

I really wish I had sold high on Hoffman. Yikes. It's so bad now that I might have to drop him for when my semifinals start next week. Just not getting a whole lot of value out of him right now. I knew his pace wasn't sustainable early but he was just such a money fantasy option in my format that gives weight to volume shooters.

[Big Ev]

I really wish I had sold high on Hoffman. Yikes. It's so bad now that I might have to drop him for when my semifinals start next week. Just not getting a whole lot of value out of him right now. I knew his pace wasn't sustainable early but he was just such a money fantasy option in my format that gives weight to volume shooters.

if he reaches 30 you can sell him. He's going to bounce around the league IMO

[Big Ev]

Murray made it clear through his media conduits that he wasn't trading to an eastern team, and if Murray DID want to have a stronger bidding war i guarantee you 100% Bruce Garrioch et al would have been writing that in fact it was wide-open, Sens would consider trading Spezza to Leafs, Habs, etc etc. People in power, whether they are GMs or politicians, use the media to send each other signals. Murray can't be cold-calling GMs offering Spezza, a first-year fantasy player knows that hurts your bargaining power. Reporters, meanwhile, just want something fresh to write each day so they will take any scraps they can get, and are therefore willing partners in this little game. Of course i can't "prove" this, there's no tape or transcript of Murray or one of his assistants whispering in Garrioch's ear. But it's obvioius.

But I don't really see the point of arguing with you Ev, you showed your hand a few pages ago on this thread by saying you trust Sens management 99% of the time (which was obvious anyway, but i was surprised you acknowledged this). Ergo, your argument is inevitably going to be the company line, and you can dress it up with anything you want but we know you are always going to defend Murray. You may be right in any given argument, but you would have more credibility if you showed a little more objectivity.
And i wouldn't have posted this had you not called the other fellow a simpleton. That's a bit over the top.

- - - Updated - - -

Now on to something more positive: http://www.dobberprospects.com/francis-perron/

I agree with most of what they do because I share the same opinion most of the time. I don't just defend them to defend them. I understand why they do things and how they're building their team. I disagree with most bloggers and fans online who all share the same opinion because they don't want to try to steer away from the circlejerk.

I'm not trying to make anything personal, just having a debate is all. I think a lot of people are negative about the team when we still have a very bright near future.

[larrylintz]

I couldn't bring myself to trade Hoffman because i just enjoyed watching him play, as a sens fan and a karlsson owner, they were great together. I put a lot of stock in having players who play an exciting brand of hockey, as opposed to some lug who specializes in garbage goals. I don't regret it as im finishing first in any event.

[plug]

Curious on your thoughts on Turris ev. He really looked amazing at the beginning of the season. I was thinking he may have hit another level, then he got hurt. And we know how the rest of the season went.

[Big Ev]

Curious on your thoughts on Turris ev. He really looked amazing at the beginning of the season. I was thinking he may have hit another level, then he got hurt. And we know how the rest of the season went.

i don't see any reason he can't continue to play like he did before he got hurt, unless the ankle or knee or whatever it is affects his skating next season. I woukd treat him as a 25 goal 65 point player at the draft this fall. Only other question mark is who his linemates will be.

[Big Ev]

I don't think a lot of fans realize the impact that injury had. We're not like a Pittsburgh who just goes to Crosby or Malkin of the other gets hurt. Turris is our most important centre and we were in the playoffs when he got hurt. The team still was giving up lots of shots and goals but still, next to stone he's the most important forward. Getting turris and MacArthur back will be big.

I also think we make a big pitch for Eriksson if he's not back in Boston. Erik will try to woo him over. I think the team trades Hoffman and tries to grab Eriksson to fill the hole. He would help us out a lot especially in the giving up chances department.

[Axeman33]

Do you think Loui is capable of replacing all the goals lost by Hoffman? I realize Loui has 27 goals this year but this is his highest goal total since 2010/11.

Hoffmans 50+ goals the past two seasons will be hard to replace for the money he will cost. I expect Hoffman to get somewhere around $4M next year (they probably could have had him for less than that if they would have shown a commitment to him), but Loui is going to cost someone $5m+ and he's having his best season in over five years.