Reply With QuoteAs a leafs fan, I wasn't disappointed in the least. He did make some good saves, but he did let in some weak goals. Especially the last one, he just completely lost the play. I would say he isn't quite ready.
Michal Neuvirth
Well George Mcphee anounced today that Neuvirth was clearly ready for the NHL & Boudreau said they are going to see how he does.
While I know its only been 2 starts(7 in total)this year but Ive witnessed them both. The first one I saw on TV he was soso against Les Habs. Tonite I saw live and he was horrible.
Bad positioning, lots of rebounds. I assume it was a matter of confidence & getting more experiance. But just had to say, thou I realize it takes Goalies longer to develop(some longer then others) I was disappointed.(SMILE)
As a leafs fan, I wasn't disappointed in the least. He did make some good saves, but he did let in some weak goals. Especially the last one, he just completely lost the play. I would say he isn't quite ready.
12 team roto with 6 keepers, G A P +/- PIM PPP SOG, W SV% SHO
C-Crosby Spezza Connolly
L-Smyth Rolston Malone Sullivan
R-Hemsky Ryan Ryder Backes Fleischmann Cleary
D-Phaneuf Rafalski Whitney Pitkanen
G-Lundqvist Bryzgalov Theodore Rinne
He is ready - he just needs the experience of learning how to read plays in the NHL. He won't get that from playing in the AHL. It will come
Varlamov had the exact same problem when he first came up.
Difference was, Varlamov had a powerhouse infront of him, managed to pull wins out even with bad stats... We'll call them 'Theodore wins'.
Neuvirth has been unlucky - Game against the Habs he was shaky and nervous and the Habs were playing well - They probably wouldn't have won with Theo in net either. He should have been better though, but it was his first start and I will give him that one.
Tonight the Caps just laid down and let the Leafs do their thing. It was disappointing, but the Caps were tired and jet lagged and Mike Green was whining about it all night on Twitter...
So you knew he would play bad - and wow. He was ****ing awful last night. Which I think I put down to his attitude.
Anyway thats not the point - point is Neuvirth had little support last night, he because he got lit up his confidence dropped throughout the game. The last goal was soft and should have been stopped - but he was mentally focusing on the loss by that time.
He has the skills and it will be sick to watch him and Varlamov tandem next year, before one of them gets dealt. They are both elite level goalies who both will be superstars one day on whatever team they end up on. In a few years it is very likely that they will both be top 10 in the league.
Who knows though - 90% of the Caps are UFA/RFA at the end of the year, including Semin, Backstrom and Neuvirth. Maybe they deal him? More likely they just let Theodore go and buy out Nylander. But they are tight up against the cap.
Anyway - I blame tonights loss on Green. But really - anyone who wasn't Poti or Morrison or the top line was to blame
I'll be covering Neuvirth in tomorrow's School of Block along with some other goalies so check back tomorrow on Dobber Hockey front page to learn more about Neuvy.
Scythe is right, Neuvy is absolutely ready for the NHL. It just comes down to experience for him and having consistent confidence. He was pretty bad in the game against the Leafs, but for fantasy hockey managers, you need to be able to recognize legit NHL talent and try to pick out the reasons why he struggles.
In both NHL games I've watched him play this year, he displayed an improvement in technique skill and speed.
But he does not yet know how to manage an NHL game and he will probably have a slightly longer adjustment period compared to that of Varlamov because Neuvirth has size issues. He's very small and compact, a lot like a Toskala, Theodore and even like Niittymaki.
Even though Neuvy has "played bad" in his NHL action this year, it's not for lack of talent. He just needs to be patient, stay focused and confident and things will be fine. Same goes for his fantasy owners.
An important difference between Varly and Neuvy, in terms of experience, is that Varly has A LOT more experience playing against men in pro leagues.
GO WINGS!
Huh? Neuvirth has mental toughness coming out of his ears. He bounced around in the OHL, back to the Czech Republic, to the AHL and ECHL just because Washington's goalie situation was completely weird. But he pulled through and flat out dominated as he took the Bears to winning the Calder Cup, getting the MVP award.Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour
So I don't get where you're getting that "lacking intangibles" argument from. You also have Neuvirth's style completely wrong. If we go by Washington's system, Varlamov is the wild, athletic goalie with crazy reflexes and Neuvirth is the calm one, great positioning, never getting rattled, etc.
Sorry to go off on a rant, but your post just screams misinformation to me.
He reminds you of Budaj... how much have you actually watched Neuvirth play?
GO WINGS!
EyeMissGilmour,
I am glad you made that post. Although I don't fully agree with it, it's kind of an important lesson that I'm actually discussing tomorrow School of Block. I'm just saving all my thoughts for that =)
When you say "From what I've seen of him" ... what exactly do you mean? Because if you have only actually sat and watched maybe one or two full games from start to finish, that's not going to accurately reflect the value and overall ability of a goalie.
Neuvirth is small, but completely solid in every other sense. He's an amazing reader of plays that will only get better at the NHL level with more NHL minutes. He definitely has some intagibles. I have even written about him on here before, about his great butterfly and style. It's very unique very awesome very refined. I'd say he's primed to be one of the best long-term keepers if he stays on this path.
Just like any goalie, things can change quickly, in months, in weeks. Just gotta wait it out, but talent is talent. Neuvirth has it all.
Put down the kool aid. Neuvirth definitely needs more time in the AHL. He looked shaky at best. At least this will temper the unreasonable expectations of beating out Varly. Aint gonna happen any time soon.
They both have the same size, but you can't just say they are both butterfly goalies and both are agile. Budaj is much more of a traditional butterfly goalie with limited lateral movement ability. He's more athletic than he is quick with his footwork.
Neuvirth is more of a flybrid or pro hybrid butterfly with extremely quick lateral movement and much faster footwork. He's more technically sound and advanced in his pad placement and angles and ability to read plays than Budaj. And he's younger by almost six years.
Rebound control is a wash. Budaj should be ten times better than Neuvirth by now. But I can already say Neuvirth has MUCH better rebound control than Budaj ... that's actually Budaj's biggest knock (besides lack of confidence).
Again if your taking this from watching just a few games, then yeah the last two games watching Neuvirth, you would wonder why any team would ever want him on their team. But scouts know what they see when they watch him ... he was born in 1988 and in a few years should be comparable to someone like Jonas Hiller or Pekka Rinne.
What comes after that point is up to him ... and the stars above LOL
Oh and I also agree with you that Neuvy needs more time in the AHL. He's NHL ready, but not for good or whatever. I would say he should finish with Hershey through this season and then let Theodore go and roll with Varly and Neuvirth next year. Pull a Nashville (Ellis/Rinne) and keep the prospects coming or wait for a good goalie deal to come along.
By the time this season is over, he'll probably play another what ... 10-15 games in a Caps jersey...maybe more depending on injuries of course. That's perfect.
I don't want to seem like I am having a go at you or anything man, but your post is very uninformed.
Hopefully you will take heart in Sentium's and GG posts and even mine - being a Neuvy owner.
1. He is way too small.
-- Please do some research or something before making outlandish claims. He is barely even 'small' let alone 'way too small'
Allan Bester was 5' 7" 155lbs.
Neuvirth is 6' 1" 190lbs - He is also only 21 and still will grow.
That weight puts him in almost a perfect weight and size range.
The goalie currently leading the NHL in almost every stat right now - Ryan Miller is smaller. So is Fleury, Anderson, Rask...
He is almost the exact same size as Backstrom, Hiller and Cam Ward.
If you want a small goalie - go look at Bernier.
He uses his size effectively as well - similar to what Ward does. Being that Ward is possibly the best goalie in the game and atleast top 5, I wouldn't be worrying about his 'lack of size'.
So he is smaller than say some of the bigger guys -- Brodeur, Quick and Price
But this does not mean he is an ineffective goaltender by any means.
2. Intangibles
Intangibles are the argument that people make when they don't have any in-depth knowledge about a topic and no way to back up claims. You did list a few different things -- mental toughness, knowing the shooters, playing the angles well and challenging the play. But these do not constitute as 'intangibles'. They are instead 'mental toughness' and technique. Intangibles is what people bring up as an excuse to back their claims.
However,
Mental Toughness - You can only go by his career so far, you can't just say that AHL mental toughness is not good enough and that he has none.
In his career so far he has shown a great deal of mental toughness, there is no reason to believe that that will stop. You can not make the argument that he has no NHL mental toughness because he hasn't even played a decent sample size in the NHL to make that judgement.
Playing the angles well - He plays angles exceptionally well. Have you watched him play before?
Challenging the play - Again, have you watched him play? He can be aggressive. Although I have no idea what this has to do with being a successful NHL goaltender. Turco is awful when he does this too much. Emery challenges the play all the time and is terrible at it
As for the Budaj comparison - the styles and techniques are leagues apart. Budaj is actually bigger than Neuvy too.
Again - I don't mean to call you out or make you feel like you know nothing man, but it is always good to do some research before you go making statements. 2 NHL games isn't enough to judge any rookie on. I hope that these comments stop you from doing something stupid like trading him away in your keeper league
Last edited by HyperScythe; December 14, 2009 at 12:40 AM.
It's all good brother. Safe to say Neuvirth is under the microscope right now and this current injury to Varlamov could be a huge "make or break" point in his career. Just gotta see how the situation unfolds.
I agree 100% that "talent is secondary to confidence and mental toughness" although I would also say that it takes both to really succeed. Marty Biron can display confidence and mental toughness but he's still slow as molasses LOL
Good stuff and its good to see points from the other side of the coin, regardless of what we believe or what ends up happening. They are all just as likely as the other to happen and that's what makes talking goalies even more fun (and frustrating as all hell lol)
But mostly its the fun thing...
1- I Believe (although I may be wrong, GG will have to clear it up) that he was referring to his style of play. Not that 'he is way too small'. He may need to change this slightly to use his body more in the NHL and make him more effective. Either way - the point is that your comparing him to a guy that was tiny. He isn't even in the bottom 10 goalies for size. AND some of those guys are the best in the NHL
2- Your judging off his NHL games - watch some of his AHL games. Yes, in his NHL debut and especially the next game - he wasn't playing special. I think you are maybe a little critical of him - but he was pretty rubbish. He was obviously stiff and nervous because he didn't use his reactions, reflexes and speed to his advantage, rather he relied on good positioning and a more 'blocking' style of play. That is not his normal game. But it will indeed be something that he needs to correct to be good in the NHL.
3 - I know what intangibles are. You pointed out that 'playing the angles' and 'challenging the play' were intangibles. I merely said that these are technique and not intangibles
Intangibles in hockey is very ho hum - everything can be explained - intangibles is more often an excuse that people use when they run out of things to back up their argument. I didn't actually mean you when I said this - I was thinking more along the lines of people who argue that Crosby is the best in the game and then sight his 'intangibles' and his cup and nothing else.
4- I am not saying that you are wrong to question Neuvirth as a sure fire starter. What I AM saying is that you are questioning the wrong things.
Look, all I am saying is you can not judge anyone from 2 NHL games. Yes he was poor in those - no one said he was good. But 2 NHL games is no where near enough to judge. Watch him play in the AHL & next season as he gets eased into the NHL AND THEN make the call.
I think that you just don't like being told that you are wrong. I just gave you the facts.
Fact 1 - He is not way too small for the NHL. He is not even slightly too small for the NHL
Fact 2 - Intangibles do not make an argument. You can almost always pin point 'intangibles' down to something that would make a little more sense to talk about. I.E Mental State, Mental Toughness, Hunger, Desire, Skills, Talent.
Grouping them into 'intangibles' isn't very helpful to anyone in terms of helping them understand what is going on. You may as well just say that someones technique is wrong... Actually that is what most people do. But - That doesn't help anyone. You need to know what parts of the technique is wrong.
Same with 'intangibles'. What part affects him? Is it his mental state? Or His Hunger? His passion? His desire to succeed? Or his confidence Or is he over thinking things too much? But I don't think that some of the things you brought up are intangibles. And even more so, it is much to early to be judging him on that.
Your making comments based on watching a rookie in his first 2 games of experience and then writing him off - which to me is ignorance.
Marty Turco had a .854 Save % after his first 3 games.
Ryan Miller had a .825 Save % after his first 2 games.
Carey Price after 3 games was .892 Save %
Even Brodeur was 0.850% after his first 5 games
Neuvirth is .848 Save % after his first 2 games this year and .906% after his first 3 NHL games. Very similar to Carey Price
So Neuvirth is in good company.
Does this prove anything? No of course not. The point is that it is much too early to tell.
But sometimes a slow start is much better than a blistering start like Varlamov is getting.
Starts like that only build up pressures in the future - which tend to lead to things like Raycroft, Theodore - and this year S.Mason and Price.
Now I am confident that Mason and Price will be fine in the long run - but their hot starts added pressure to them to perform, which has not helped their performance.
So hopefully Neuvirth gets the chance now to sit back - fine tune his game and work at his own pace. He is very young and has a lot more time to get things right.
He is by no means a legitimate starter and I never said he was. I said he should be and that he has the talent to be one - but it all depends on his progression and what the Capitals decide to do with him. They probably won't keep won't Varly and Neuvirth. So if he gets dealt - his success may depend on his potential team and their environment.
Last edited by HyperScythe; December 14, 2009 at 6:28 AM.
This is something i really noticed in his 2 NHL games. But one thing I connect this with is confidence at an NHL level. He clearly doesnt have it.....YET.
alot of young Goalies have this similar problem. The latest(and most obvious to me being in Toronto) was the "Monster", who when he first started was ooziing with confidence - challenging shooters! Several NHLers commented on this ie; NLidstrom who said: "Its hard to score on him. He's big & covers the net. He comes out & cuts down the Angles very well.
Then one game against Calgary he was very shakey(stayed in his net) & gave up 3 quick Goals. For several games after that you could see he was not the same.
Then Just b4 his 2nd Heart Abrasin u couild tell it was coming back.
Clearly to me anyhow a big part of it is confidence. And that is a huge thing with young Goalies & certainly MN at this point.
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