1-0

[BrianSTC]

lanky wrote:

but i certainly wouldn\'t take crosby or malkin over AO on a real team.

That is because you\'re a homer.

I actually think the real telling statistic came during the second round of the playoffs...what you ask?

When Crosby and the Penguins beat Ovechkin and the Capitals. Crosby is not only up 1-0 in Cups; he is up 1-0 in head-to-head series...

[lanky]

BrianSTC wrote:

lanky wrote:

but i certainly wouldn\'t take crosby or malkin over AO on a real team.

That is because you\'re a homer.

I actually think the real telling statistic came during the second round of the playoffs...what you ask?

When Crosby and the Penguins beat Ovechkin and the Capitals. Crosby is not only up 1-0 in Cups; he is up 1-0 in head-to-head series...

um... crosby beat ovechkin and the capitals? or crosby AND malkin beat ovechkin and the capitals?

I\'m not saying this because i\'m a homer. I\'m saying this because I have a brain. Any yahoo would understand that any team with 2 of the big 3 would have an advantage over a team with only 1 of the 3.

You cannot create any kind of comparison here (in this fashion) until these 3 guys are on 3 separate teams, and ONE of them beats ONE of the others in the playoffs.

Until that happens, the above is just a foolish argument.

[roncool11]

lanky wrote:

BrianSTC wrote:

lanky wrote:

but i certainly wouldn\'t take crosby or malkin over AO on a real team.

That is because you\'re a homer.

I actually think the real telling statistic came during the second round of the playoffs...what you ask?

When Crosby and the Penguins beat Ovechkin and the Capitals. Crosby is not only up 1-0 in Cups; he is up 1-0 in head-to-head series...

um... crosby beat ovechkin and the capitals? or crosby AND malkin beat ovechkin and the capitals?

I\'m not saying this because i\'m a homer. I\'m saying this because I have a brain. Any yahoo would understand that any team with 2 of the big 3 would have an advantage over a team with only 1 of the 3.

You cannot create any kind of comparison here (in this fashion) until these 3 guys are on 3 separate teams, and ONE of them beats ONE of the others in the playoffs.

Until that happens, the above is just a foolish argument.

I agree it\'s unfair to say Crosby\'s better than AO simply because he beat him in the series because he also had Malkin (who I think might have the most pure talent of the three but unsure). At the same time I still don\'t see how AO is going to change the way hockey is played, being enthusiastic does not equal innovator. Now don\'t get me wrong I think AO is a truly amazing player and incredible to watch but so are Crosby and Malkin. The thing with AO is I think he\'ll struggle HEAVILY to reach 120 points while Crosby and Malkin could become perennial 120+ players for the next decade starting next year. AO would have to top 50 assists to get 120 assuming he scores SEVENTY goals. Now he could reach those totals, he has scored 65 goals and had 54 assists (different seasons though) but I just think the way he plays limits him. Therefore if I\'m starting a team I\'m taking the younger (a little, I know) players with a higher potential.

[Flyer Fan]

Wow, this thread has turned into a good debate. :laugh:


For what it\'s worth, my personal opinion is that it will be some time before we\'ll be able to truly anwer the question as to how these three amazing players stack up.

I think that much of a great players impact on \"the game\" can only truly be seen closer to the ends of their careers, after some other factors like, teamates, health, coaches, longevity, conditioning, (and yes good fortune or bad luck)have had their impacts upon the players careers as well.

Eric Lindros, Peter Forsberg, Pavel Bure, or Alex Mogilny are all examples of \"special\" players who were derailed by injuries.


Hawerchuck, Roenick, Hasek, or Housley could be used as another group that on another team, might have garnered a few more rings, and the accompanying accolades...

Jari Kurri would serve as the opposite example, put him on the Stl. Blues on Mike Bullards line, and Mike Gartner on the Gretzky\'s RW, and which one\'s going to have an easier time getting into the Hall?


I remember Lindros winning the Hart and leading his team to the Stanley Cup Final, and drawing favorable comparisons to Gordie Howe, ...from Gordie Howe!

Ovechkin like Lindros, plays a very, very physical game; will he be able to do that for the next ten years, and keep putting up monster numbers? or, will the wear and tear take a toll on him? or will he lose even a half step; because some teams sixth defenseman gets beaten, and instinctively sticks out a leg?

Same goes for Crosby, ...who was just knocked out of game seven of his first cup clincher, by a charley horse, and missed a good chunk of last season with an ankle sprain, or Malkin who had two near miss knee on knee collisions in the finals alone, ...these guys play a physical, power game, at a high rate of speed, I think health, and longevity are going to be big, big factors in determining the types of careers they have.

[BrianSTC]

lanky wrote:

BrianSTC wrote:

lanky wrote:

but i certainly wouldn\'t take crosby or malkin over AO on a real team.

That is because you\'re a homer.

I actually think the real telling statistic came during the second round of the playoffs...what you ask?

When Crosby and the Penguins beat Ovechkin and the Capitals. Crosby is not only up 1-0 in Cups; he is up 1-0 in head-to-head series...

um... crosby beat ovechkin and the capitals? or crosby AND malkin beat ovechkin and the capitals?

I\'m not saying this because i\'m a homer. I\'m saying this because I have a brain. Any yahoo would understand that any team with 2 of the big 3 would have an advantage over a team with only 1 of the 3.

You cannot create any kind of comparison here (in this fashion) until these 3 guys are on 3 separate teams, and ONE of them beats ONE of the others in the playoffs.

Until that happens, the above is just a foolish argument.

LOL!

YOU ARE SUCH A HOMER!!!!

I love how you actually tried to change what I said...as highlighted above...

I guess \"and the Penguins\" somehow DOES NOT include Malkin? Is that what you are trying say?

And why is it that Malkin is all of a sudden \"God\" but then Backstrom, Semin, and Green are now bums?? Not worth mentioning that Ovechkin had these guys on HIS SIDE???

Anyway, just so you know, the post above was somewhat tongue-in-cheek...I believe it takes a bit of luck to win the Cup. However, in saying that...Crosby did play unbelievably during the Washington series.

[roncool11]

BrianSTC wrote:

lanky wrote:

BrianSTC wrote:

lanky wrote:

but i certainly wouldn\'t take crosby or malkin over AO on a real team.

That is because you\'re a homer.

I actually think the real telling statistic came during the second round of the playoffs...what you ask?

When Crosby and the Penguins beat Ovechkin and the Capitals. Crosby is not only up 1-0 in Cups; he is up 1-0 in head-to-head series...

um... crosby beat ovechkin and the capitals? or crosby AND malkin beat ovechkin and the capitals?

I\'m not saying this because i\'m a homer. I\'m saying this because I have a brain. Any yahoo would understand that any team with 2 of the big 3 would have an advantage over a team with only 1 of the 3.

You cannot create any kind of comparison here (in this fashion) until these 3 guys are on 3 separate teams, and ONE of them beats ONE of the others in the playoffs.

Until that happens, the above is just a foolish argument.

LOL!

YOU ARE SUCH A HOMER!!!!

I love how you actually tried to change what I said...as highlighted above...

I guess \"and the Penguins\" somehow DOES NOT include Malkin? Is that what you are trying say?

And why is it that Malkin is all of a sudden \"God\" but then Backstrom, Semin, and Green are now bums?? Not worth mentioning that Ovechkin had these guys on HIS SIDE???

Anyway, just so you know, the post above was somewhat tongue-in-cheek...I believe it takes a bit of luck to win the Cup. However, in saying that...Crosby did play unbelievably during the Washington series.

If Ao had Malkin on him team Ao wins cup. Crosby/Malkin/AO ARE gods compared to semin. Were talking the top 3 players who could all possible be top 10 players of all time and their all younger than 23

[BrianSTC]

roncool11 wrote:

If Ao had Malkin on him team Ao wins cup. Crosby/Malkin/AO ARE gods compared to semin. Were talking the top 3 players who could all possible be top 10 players of all time and their all younger than 23

Bull.

Anyone who continues to say stuff like this is bitter and showing their sour grapes. That or they just don\'t know shit about hockey. Why can\'t Ovechkin fans show a little class and give Crosby his due?

The Washington Capitals lost to the Penguins because they did not step up their game. Whereas, the Penguins did. So stop being sour about it! Accept it!

Maybe with the added playoff experience, the Capitals might go a little farther next year. Time will tell.

But writing off the fact the Crosby won the Cup solely because Malkin was on his team??? GROW UP PEOPLE!

**NEWFLASH**
MALKIN IS A PITTSBURGH PENGUIN!

If the stars fall into alignment next year and Ovechkin wins the Stanley Cup, don\'t you think Semin, Backstrom, and Green will deserve a little credit as well??

Poor losers.

Sorry, that is what you Ovechkin fans are. Or more specifically, the AO fans who continue to knock Crosby.

[roncool11]

BrianSTC wrote:

roncool11 wrote:

If Ao had Malkin on him team Ao wins cup. Crosby/Malkin/AO ARE gods compared to semin. Were talking the top 3 players who could all possible be top 10 players of all time and their all younger than 23

Bull.

Anyone who continues to say stuff like this is bitter and showing their sour grapes. That or they just don\'t know shit about hockey. Why can\'t Ovechkin fans show a little class and give Crosby his due?

The Washington Capitals lost to the Penguins because they did not step up their game. Whereas, the Penguins did. So stop being sour about it! Accept it!

Maybe with the added playoff experience, the Capitals might go a little farther next year. Time will tell.

But writing off the fact the Crosby won the Cup solely because Malkin was on his team??? GROW UP PEOPLE!

**NEWFLASH**
MALKIN IS A PITTSBURGH PENGUIN!

If the stars fall into alignment next year and Ovechkin wins the Stanley Cup, don\'t you think Semin, Backstrom, and Green will deserve a little credit as well??

Poor losers.

Sorry, that is what you Ovechkin fans are. Or more specifically, the AO fans who continue to knock Crosby.

I\'m not knocking Crosby I\'m pointing out my opinion. In your original post you said CROSBY and the Penguins beat Washington? You didn\'t say the penguins beat Washington. You obviously meant to single out Crosby but now act like no I just meant the team in general. What I\'m saying is that Crosby alone did not win a Cup, Malkin alone did not win a cup the penguins did. In fact if anyone won a cup i was Talbot lol. Penguins have a better team that doesn\'t mean Crosby is better. Noone knows who\'s the best in the league, you can\'t even prove to me that Crosby is the best player on his TEAM. You complain that people say that Malkin won the cup and then point out that Malkin is simply a penguin, at the same time it looks like your trying to prove that the penguins won because of Crosby.


What do you mean by this quote:

But writing off the fact the Crosby won the Cup solely because Malkin was on his team??? GROW UP PEOPLE!

\"**NEWFLASH**
MALKIN IS A PITTSBURGH PENGUIN!
If the stars fall into alignment next year and Ovechkin wins the Stanley Cup, don\'t you think Semin, Backstrom, and Green will deserve a little credit as well??\"

That Malkin deserves a \"little credit\"?

I would guarantee that Washington had won if they had Malkin as well that\'s all I was saying and it was in response to all this b.s where everyone would say \"Crosby won the cup, or Crosby and the penguins won the cup\"

If you single out Crosby and then expect someone to call you on it.

[BrianSTC]

roncool11 wrote:

I\'m not knocking Crosby I\'m pointing out my opinion. In your original post you said CROSBY and the Penguins beat Washington? You didn\'t say the penguins beat Washington. You obviously meant to single out Crosby but now act like no I just meant the team in general. What I\'m saying is that Crosby alone did not win a Cup, Malkin alone did not win a cup the penguins did.

No actuallly what you said was:

If Ao had Malkin on him team Ao wins cup. Crosby/Malkin/AO ARE gods compared to semin. Were talking the top 3 players who could all possible be top 10 players of all time and their all younger than 23

WHY DO YOU GUYS ALWAYS TALK LIKE OVECHKIN HAS NO HELP WHATSOEVER, BUT CROSBY HAS MALKIN!!

Sorry, that is just complete BS!

What if Washington traded Semin, Backstrom, and Green to Pittsburgh for Malkin? Then Ovechkin would have Malkin on his team, but would they win the Cup? I DON\'T THINK SO!

Of course maybe you are saying that you just want to add Malkin to the mix in Washington without giving anything up? I can think of 28 other teams who would have a chance at winning the Cup if they could just only add a Malkin to their line-up!! Duh!

It is just a ridiculous hypothetical thing to say...

roncool11 wrote:

In fact if anyone won a cup i was Talbot lol. Penguins have a better team that doesn\'t mean Crosby is better. Noone knows who\'s the best in the league, you can\'t even prove to me that Crosby is the best player on his TEAM. You complain that people say that Malkin won the cup and then point out that Malkin is simply a penguin, at the same time it looks like your trying to prove that the penguins won because of Crosby.

ok.
If you read EVERY SINGLE one of my posts, I have used the term Crosby and the Penguins. The last time I checked TALBOT IS A PENGUIN.

Why do I single out Crosby? Because whether you like it or not, Crosby is the captain and the face of that franchise. You can whine and cry all you want, it won\'t change that fact!

Why is it that no one whined last year when Lidstrom and the Red Wings won the Cup? And yes people DID SAY that.

Or in the 80s when Gretzky and the Oilers won the Cup? Nobody came up with idiot statements like, \"Well if Messier was in Boston, they would\'ve won...sniff...sniff...sob...sob\"

And in the 80s IT WAS Gretzky and the Oilers. People said it all the time. Messier was overshadowed in Edmonton, just like Malkin is with the Penguins.

Sorry, I am not calling you an idiot...but your statement IS IDIOTIC...it is just sounds like sour grapes from an Ovechkin fan.

[BrianSTC]

roncool11 wrote:

I would guarantee that Washington had won if they had Malkin as well that\'s all I was saying and it was in response to all this b.s where everyone would say \"Crosby won the cup, or Crosby and the penguins won the cup\"

If you single out Crosby and then expect someone to call you on it.

I just thought I would point how hypocritical you are being here.
You are “calling me out” for singling out Crosby….well

Let’s revisit your post shall we?

roncool11 wrote:

If Ao had Malkin on him team Ao wins cup. Crosby/Malkin/AO ARE gods compared to semin. Were talking the top 3 players who could all possible be top 10 players of all time and their all younger than 23

Your words: “Ao wins the cup”

NOT: Washington wins the cup…
NOT: Ovechkin and the Capitals win the cup…

Just “Ao wins the cup”

So you rag on me for saying Crosby and the Penguins, but it is fine for you to say Ovechkin wins the cup…

Just saying…

[lanky]

my god... is this how everyone else feels when i post back and forth trying to make my point? because i just read this entire page here, and feel like i\'ve wasted my life in doing so.

yes malkin is different than any of the caps support players.

yes malkin stepped up after games 1 and 2 in the washington series and was a huge reason for the pens winning that second round series against the caps.

can we move on now?

All i was ever trying to say in this post was that I\'d take a gamebreaking, innovative scorer (yes he\'s innovative... he regularly scores in fashions that no other player that i remember has) over an amazing set up guy any day of the week. That\'s just me. I\'d prefer to start my team around a great goal scorer than a great passer.

to each their own.

I bitch about crosby because he\'s a crap ass captain. If ovechkin were a captain and pulled the same stuff, i\'d bitch about him too.

I\'ve got no beef with crosby\'s game. I think he\'s outstanding. I just think he needs to grow up if he\'s going to be his team\'s captain. That\'s my only issue with the kid. And i think it\'s pretty justifiable.

At the end of the day, I\'d just prefer to have the goalscorer. This isn\'t just Crosby vs. Ovechkin... it\'s Thornton vs. Heatley... Savard vs. Carter... I\'d take the guy that can put the puck in the net any day before the guy that looks to pass.

Personal preference. Take it or leave it. I\'m done bickering.

[roncool11]

lanky wrote:

my god... is this how everyone else feels when i post back and forth trying to make my point? because i just read this entire page here, and feel like i\'ve wasted my life in doing so.

yes malkin is different than any of the caps support players.

yes malkin stepped up after games 1 and 2 in the washington series and was a huge reason for the pens winning that second round series against the caps.

can we move on now?

All i was ever trying to say in this post was that I\'d take a gamebreaking, innovative scorer (yes he\'s innovative... he regularly scores in fashions that no other player that i remember has) over an amazing set up guy any day of the week. That\'s just me. I\'d prefer to start my team around a great goal scorer than a great passer.

to each their own.

I bitch about crosby because he\'s a crap ass captain. If ovechkin were a captain and pulled the same stuff, i\'d bitch about him too.

I\'ve got no beef with crosby\'s game. I think he\'s outstanding. I just think he needs to grow up if he\'s going to be his team\'s captain. That\'s my only issue with the kid. And i think it\'s pretty justifiable.

At the end of the day, I\'d just prefer to have the goalscorer. This isn\'t just Crosby vs. Ovechkin... it\'s Thornton vs. Heatley... Savard vs. Carter... I\'d take the guy that can put the puck in the net any day before the guy that looks to pass.

Personal preference. Take it or leave it. I\'m done bickering.

Yes yes it is lol, no just kidding. Oh and to the poster I was arguing with I am NOT an AO fan, ask lanky:P

[leafs_1979]

lanky wrote:

my god... is this how everyone else feels when i post back and forth trying to make my point? because i just read this entire page here, and feel like i\'ve wasted my life in doing so.

yes malkin is different than any of the caps support players.

yes malkin stepped up after games 1 and 2 in the washington series and was a huge reason for the pens winning that second round series against the caps.

can we move on now?

All i was ever trying to say in this post was that I\'d take a gamebreaking, innovative scorer (yes he\'s innovative... he regularly scores in fashions that no other player that i remember has) over an amazing set up guy any day of the week. That\'s just me. I\'d prefer to start my team around a great goal scorer than a great passer.

to each their own.

I bitch about crosby because he\'s a crap ass captain. If ovechkin were a captain and pulled the same stuff, i\'d bitch about him too.

I\'ve got no beef with crosby\'s game. I think he\'s outstanding. I just think he needs to grow up if he\'s going to be his team\'s captain. That\'s my only issue with the kid. And i think it\'s pretty justifiable.

At the end of the day, I\'d just prefer to have the goalscorer. This isn\'t just Crosby vs. Ovechkin... it\'s Thornton vs. Heatley... Savard vs. Carter... I\'d take the guy that can put the puck in the net any day before the guy that looks to pass.

Personal preference. Take it or leave it. I\'m done bickering.

I started this thread to point out that Crosby is up 1-0 in the Stanley cup count.

Lanky you conceded the following:

ok buddy. whatever you say. you can have your above average center with stanley cups. I\'ll take my greatest goal scorer of all time and be happy about it.

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

[ridinryan44]

leafs_1979 wrote:

so is it safe to say you\'d take your goal scorer over my passer who could end up with more cups? If you were starting a team??? how will this team be measured? feel good moments? gumdrops and sugarplums?

I still don\'t see how Crosby winning a cup makes him a better player than Ovechkin? I see the argument for both sides, no one will ever win the argument as to who the better player actually is, but winning a cup doesn\'t make you a better player than another. Last time I checked it takes a team to win a cup, not one player. Fair enough that you think Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin, lots of people do. Using the fact that he has won a cup and Ovie hasn\'t is utterly ridiculous, IMO.

[MXHockey]

ridinryan44 wrote:

I still don\'t see how Crosby winning a cup makes him a better player than Ovechkin? I see the argument for both sides, no one will ever win the argument as to who the better player actually is, but winning a cup doesn\'t make you a better player than another. Last time I checked it takes a team to win a cup, not one player. Fair enough that you think Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin, lots of people do. Using the fact that he has won a cup and Ovie hasn\'t is utterly ridiculous, IMO.

First, if I had to pick which guy to build a team around for the sake of winnnig the cup it would be Crosby. I\'m not going to get into why, because then I\'ll end up debating with lanky for the next 2 weeks of my life.

The thing that makes me laugh about this thread is how it became another Crosby vs Ovie classic. Haha, just love it.


Ridinryan makes a great point, it takes a whole team to win a cup, not just one or two players. Albeit, typically teams go as far as their best players take them, but the Pens cup win was more than just Crosby and Malks.....


It takes a team commitment to a system. The Pens were on the outside looking in before Bylsma came to town and led the team to a 18-3-4 record before their march to the Cup. If the Pens would have re-signed Hossa in the off-season, I don\'t think they make it back to the final. In fact they probably would have had a better regular season record, Therrien still behind the bench since they would have probably had a better first half record, and then they would have bowed out sometime in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs. They definitely don\'t acquire Guerin and Kunitz at the deadline, who were two key pieces to the puzzle that gave the team chemistry. And likely, Therrien gets fired in June rather than earlier in the year.

As for the playoff run, if Staal doesn\'t step up his game, the Pens lose the final series in 6. If Gonchar doesn\'t come back to the washington series, they never would have got past the Caps. I think all the Green hype has made people forget how good Gonchar is. Talbot\'s game 7 magic was very timely etc. etc.


I think coaching and the depth players are getting overlooked here with all this AO/Malkin/Crosby talk. One of the main reasons the Pens won is because of the experience of last year\'s playoffs, and the fact that they bought into a team system once Bylsma rolled in and got the team back on track.

And although the Pens were full marks for the win, the Wings still looked like the better team IMO and I think they\'re the favorites next year.

Sorry for going off-track fellas, but I felt it was worth pointing out that the Pens clearly changed as a team once the coaching change was made, and Gonchar came back into the mix after his shoulder injury. Of course Crosby and Malkin were huge reasons for their success, but so were some other guys, and the coaching staff.

Wow, my post sounds very Disney.....

The Mighty Pens....Emilio EStevez as Dan Bylsma...........haha.:laugh:


Cheers.