burns new article - chris simon

[repenttokyo]

i think you are missing the point. It\'s not solely about intent, it\'s about what happened. The NHL can\'t get inside his head and judge where he \"intended\" to hit Hollweg with his stick. Instead, they need to react to what he DID do in order to send a message that such play will not be tolerated. I don\'t see how you can say his suspension was too harsh or in any way defend his actions, particularly since he has been suspended by the NHL 6 times already. He\'s not someone who had an isolated incident caused by a lack of judgement - he\'s a repeat offender.

[lanky522]

I agree quite a bit with this. I think the \"repeat offender\" aspect of this should be taken into account by everyone (from analyists to the NHL disciplinary guys).

On another note...

The fact that bertuzzi got suspended for as long as he did (20ish games, the playoffs, and the ENTIRE lockout season) for punching Moore, and there are people out there saying that simon was suspended too long is ludicrous to me. Simon used a weapon to hit someone, while Bertuzzi used his fist. I hope burnsy won\'t say that Bertuzzi\'s fists are as deadly as Simon with a stick.

I mean seriously, how can you say that swinging a stick at someone isn\'t worth at least as much of a suspension as swinging your fist at someone? Who would start a fight with only their fists when the other guy has a 2x4? No one. That\'s because you\'d die.

I think if you\'d look at the penal codes in most jurisdictions (in the U.S. at least), you\'d find that \"assault\" carries less of a penalty than \"assault with a deadly weapon.\" Simon\'s suspension was very deserving... if anything it was a bit lenient because of all the past offenses he\'s had...

[seoGuru]

I agree with this also.
It\'s bad enough that players are flinging their sticks around carelessly.

There\'s just no place in hockey for swinging a stick like that.
He hit him in the chin... only an inch a way from the throat, which could have killed the guy.

[donpaulo]

Its not like its his first offense neither ~!
Do you all remember the N bomb he dropped on I believe it was mike grier back when chris was playing for the caps ?

[lanky522]

Do you all remember the N bomb he dropped on I believe it was mike grier back when chris was playing for the caps ?

Um... are you from Canada or some other country? Last I checked, here in America we have a first ammendment right to free speech. I\'d agree with you that using a slur in reference to anyone (from any race or religion) is in VERY poor taste.

I don\'t really understand why you bring it up here though, as the two instances are COMPLETELY unrelated. He didn\'t hit a black guy, so did you just post this to remind us that he\'s an ass inside and out or what?

I\'ve never been a Simon fan and I\'m not supporting the fact that he said a slur about another hockey player, I just don\'t really understand why that pertains to him smacking someone in the face with a stick. I\'d more quickly associate all the slashing and fighting majors he gotten throughout his career than a comment he made.

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/03/21 11:08

[repenttokyo]

he mentioned the racial slur because Simon was suspended for that racial slur. He brought it up to illustrated Simon being a repeat offender. So it\'s very relevant.

http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1997/...s/sports2.html

freedom of speech doesn\'t cover hate speech.

Post edited by: repenttokyo, at: 2007/03/21 11:24

Post edited by: repenttokyo, at: 2007/03/21 11:26

[lanky522]

freedom of speech doesn\'t cover hate speech.

Yeah. Yeah it does. As much as you might not like it. Freedom of speech does protect hate speech.

I wasn\'t aware that he was suspended for it. That\'s good that the NHL (as an organization) doesn\'t allow that kind of thing to happen (it reflects badly on the entire sport - and certainly doesn\'t win new fans). Doesn\'t really make much sense to me though... I thought Sean Avery did the same thing without any suspension a year ago...?

Regardless, being suspended for something you said and something you did are completely different circumstances.

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/03/21 11:41

[SirIrish]

True, racial slurs and trying to smash another’s face in with a stick are separate issues. But, just so you know Lanky, the NHL is in no way governed by the United States first amendment rights. Why would it be, it’s an international league. The NHL has a \"zero-tolerance\" policy on the issue.

RULE 58
The Referee may impose a \"GROSS MISCONDUCT\" penalty on any player, Manager, Coach or Trainer who is guilty of gross misconduct of any kind. Any person incurring a \"gross misconduct\" penalty shall be suspended for the balance of the game and shall incur an automatic fine of two hundred dollars ($200) and the case shall be referred to the Commissioner of the League for further disciplinary action. (See also Rule 28(d) -- Misconduct Penalties.)
(NOTE) For all game misconduct and gross misconduct penalties regardless of when imposed, a total of ten minutes shall be charged in the records against the offending player.
A gross misconduct penalty can be assessed for the following infractions:
i. interfering with or striking a spectator.
ii. post-game verbal abuse from players or non-playing Club personnel (on or off the ice)
iii. racial taunts or slurs
iv. spitting on an opponent or spectator

[lanky522]

I understand that the NHL as an organization can suspend anyone at anytime for any reason they want. The NHL is a company/business. Just like any place any of us might work, I\'m sure we\'d face some sort of discipline if we used a slur in our workplace. We might even get fired for it. I don\'t condone such actions, and I think it\'s great that he got suspended for it.

I was just trying to say that BY LAW, you ARE allowed to say such things (in the U.S. at least). Repenttokyo was saying that the first ammendment doesn\'t allow you to say racial slurs. It\'s that kind of ignorance that is upsetting for me to see (like women who don\'t support \"women\'s sufferage\&quot. BY LAW (last time I checked), you are not allowed to hit someone in the face with a stick though.

These instances are on complete different planes of seriousness. I do agree that his repeated poor behavior and suspensions, shows his complete lack of respect for the league, players, and fans and that he should receive punishment with previous issues of behavior taken into account.

I think that Simon should be suspended even longer than he was. I think he should be out as long as it takes for his attitude to change. He showed no remorse whatsoever and he never even appologized. Bertuzzi was suspended for a season and a half for his punch, and he appologized with TEARS. Simon just says that he\'s sorry he costed his team the game, and will probably be back by next season.

I don\'t support Simon at all in this case, I\'m just trying to make it clear that racial slurs and going axe murderer on someone\'s face with a stick are in separate categories of severity.

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/03/21 12:28

[SirIrish]

Point taken, and for the record, I was in no way suggesting that you condone this type of behavior. It was, however, misleading to suggest that the first amendment rights, which pertain only to Americans outside an established institution, somehow came into play on an international stage.

[lanky522]

Yeah I know it got kind of confusing.

I was merely trying to compare the American government\'s differences in consequenses for slurs (nothing) and assault with a deadly weapon (jail time) to the Simon situation to show that his previous slur, and this incident are on a different level.

[repenttokyo]

freedom of speech in my country does not protect hate speech.

the NHL has a code of conduct, and players who break that code of conduct are punished. It\'s that simple. It\'s not a \"constitutional issue\". No one is forcing Chris Simon to participate in the NHL.

I don\'t see why you had to imply that I am \"ignorant\". I think the only \"ignorance\" in this thread is your assumption that I am american and was referring to your laws.

Post edited by: repenttokyo, at: 2007/03/21 13:41

[lanky522]

Check a couple of posts before you made a big deal about this... you\'ll see me say this:

Um... are you from Canada or some other country? Last I checked, here in America we have a first ammendment right to free speech

If Simon was playing for Washington at the time, he\'s protected by Washington D.C.\'s laws. All but 6 of the 30 teams are in the U.S. and unless an incident happens in an away game outside the country, players answer to U.S. laws.

Sorry for saying you were ignorant, I was working off the assumption that you read everything (or at least some of what) I wrote before you replied.

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/03/21 14:03

[lanky522]

Btw, having a law against any sort of racial slur is kind of difficult. Unless you\'re caught saying it on tape, there\'s not really any way to prove whether you said it or not, you know?

It\'s the ultimate he said, she said situation.

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/03/21 15:14

[repenttokyo]

I don\'t really think that this forum is the place to get into a discussion of protected speech versus hate speech. I am sure that we have some very, very different views regarding social responsibility.