Basille bids on PHX

[mapletreemarty]

The NHL and Bettman is ******ed if they block this deal from going through. Stop being a p*ssy bettman and admit that you f*cked up by trying to put an ICE HOCKEY team in the DESERT. Wow... sheer brilliance.. it\'s the equivalent of putting an MLS team in Greenland.

[narduch]

Diamond Joe wrote:

The thing that gives this more credibility is the bankruptcy protection...at some point there\'s going to be considerable consideration to what creditors of a professional franchise are going to want...well they just got their money.

This is a great point. The fact that Moyes went to bankruptcy court guarantees that Bettman can not pull the shenanigans he did in Nashville by giving the team to a group with a much lower offer.

[lanky]

mapletreemarty wrote:

The NHL and Bettman is ******ed if they block this deal from going through. Stop being a p*ssy bettman and admit that you f*cked up by trying to put an ICE HOCKEY team in the DESERT. Wow... sheer brilliance.. it\'s the equivalent of putting an MLS team in Greenland.

Not sure if this has been mentioned here yet, but my opinion of this is that bettman is not trying to keep hockey in the desert. He\'s trying to avoid the fallout that moving phoenix would cause.

A few things:

1) By phoenix moving, it would set hockey in the \"west\" back several years, as they\'d basically be conceeding that it doesn\'t work. In my opinion, it can work (and for that matter, to certain extent already is)... there\'s just more problems with the economy in that area then there are most places...

The southwest has been one of the hardest hit areas of the economic downturn of any region in the U.S. However, nobody would see that if they were to move the team now... everyone would just assume (or say i told you so) that hockey just doesn\'t work out there.

2) By moving the team to the Southern Ontario region, Basille would complicate the makeup of the teams already currently in that region. The relocated team would without a doubt \"steal\" revenue and fans from both Toronto and Buffalo... something that (at least buffalo), cannot afford at this point in time.

How does relocating a troubled team to a place where it may thrive, but puts another team in a bad situation make anything any better in the grande scheme of the league? You\'ve just switched which team is struggling... and it\'s not fair to Buffalo ownership to lose money just because Phoenix isn\'t working out and may need to relocate.

-----

These are the NHL\'s problems with Basille and his offer... If he were to offer money to the team, and work with the NHL regarding relocation ideas that may work out (without negatively impacting other, existing franchises)... that\'d be one thing... but he\'s not. He wants to do it his way or no way.

The NHL has 29 other franchises and organizations to be concerned about... Basille just has the 1 that he owns (if he ever actually manages to get one). In the grande scheme, Basille cannot just do whatever he wants... and that my friends is why the NHL is blocking him.

[lanky]

From dobber\'s ramblings:

Damien Cox has an intesting slant on the Balsillie vs. Bettman debacle. His take is that because the players have a huge stake in overall league revenues, they are seeing the paychecks cut dramatically thanks to Phoenix. He alludes to the NHLPA not only backing Balsillie, but that they knew this was coming over a week ago. The NHLPA wants to maximize revenue and another team in Ontario will do that. This is essentially the NHLPA and Balsillie vs. the NHL and Bettman. Read the full piece here.



Balsillie not only wants the feather in his cap that is an NHL team in Ontario - but he wants to be completely open about it and still force things to fall his way despite the NHL opposition, making that feather a very big one. It\'s an additional challenge to him to take on a powerhouse head on and come out on top. That\'s why he doesn\'t want to keep his plans under wraps, as I was wondering about below. I fully support Jim Balsillie and I signed up on makeitseven.ca . You should too.



A quick comment on Jim Balsillie\'s aggressive attempt to buy the Coyotes and bring them to Southern Ontario. First off, I wonder why he doesn\'t just silently buy a team, keep it in its market for one full year and THEN move it to Ontario - catching the league off guard. By being so open about it, he just gets the NHL\'s panties in a knot. Second, why is the league so dead against the move?

I for one will not sign that \"petition.\" I don\'t have a problem with another team in Canada, but I do have a problem with another team in southern ontario.

Some markets have proven strong enough for multiple teams in the area, the buffalo region is not one of these markets in my opinion. I think they will be hit very hard if another team moves to southern ontario... and i don\'t think that is right.

Move a 7th team to canada... go ahead. But put them in a place where they aren\'t going to have a negative impact on any existing NHL franchises.

[ultrawhiteness]

he took a team from us, and now we\'re taking it back.

THAT is what \"we\" see here, lanky, and THAT is why we are angry.

[Superchief]

That may be but I think something Dobber said a year ago makes sense - MLSE is leaning on Bettman to keep a team out of Southern Ontario. I can see no other explanation for not moving a team there.

Sure, a third team in this area might infringe on Buffalo but it may be very minor considering the Coyotes are not that good of a team and may not get any better any time soon.

[metaldude26]

The only place that makes any sense from that perspective is Winnipeg. Imagine the \'Yotes ended up turning right back into the Jets!!!

[ultrawhiteness]

to address the two (valid) concerns that lanky brought up:

1. hockey has not failed in the southwest. dallas has been a huge success, and there are now hockey prospects coming out of bloody texas, for god\'s sake.

california is another huge success.

phoenix though... that was just a bad idea. and they screwed themselves with bad business decisions, such as building their new arena way the f out in glendale, when all their season ticket holders live on the other side of town. that team will not work in that location.. period.

2. buffalo will get hurt... because they will have less toronto maple leaf fans coming through their gates. cry me a frikin river. you know what the upside is here? they can try and qualify for league assistance, just like phoenix.

leave the team in phoenix and you have 1 terrible franchise that can\'t pay its own bills and one shaky franchise in buffalo.

move it to southern ontario and you still have a shaky franchise is buffalo, but now you also have a money printing machine to keep revenues up during the course of this recession.

toronto will NOT lose money. this cannot be argued. they will still sell out every game. and still sell merchandise to the leaf diaspora across NA. i also heard on the radio that MLSE doesn\'t have as much clout among the owners as one would think... basically, whenever they bring up a complaint or try to say that they\'re losing money, they get laughed at because the feeling is that if you are indeed losing money there, then you\'re incompetent.

[lanky]

Superchief wrote:

That may be but I think something Dobber said a year ago makes sense - MLSE is leaning on Bettman to keep a team out of Southern Ontario. I can see no other explanation for not moving a team there.

Sure, a third team in this area might infringe on Buffalo but it may be very minor considering the Coyotes are not that good of a team and may not get any better any time soon.

i\'m sure that toronto AND buffalo are putting pressure on Bettman to keep it from happening...

it was only a few years ago that buffalo filed for bankrupcy... so i don\'t think it\'s too far fetched to assume that even an average/poor NHL team in southern ontario would put buffalo in a dire situation.

I\'d be surprised if any fewer than 30% of buffalo\'s fanbase is from southern ontario...

[ultrawhiteness]

metaldude26 wrote:

The only place that makes any sense from that perspective is Winnipeg. Imagine the \'Yotes ended up turning right back into the Jets!!!

oh god. come on now. say it with me: winnipeg. is. not. getting. a. team.

they just built a brand spanking new arena with the help of local and provincial government dollars and guess what? they built it too small for an NHL team. the city gov\'t is happy with a very successful AHL franchise.

[lanky]

ultrawhiteness wrote:

to address the two (valid) concerns that lanky brought up:

1. hockey has not failed in the southwest. dallas has been a huge success, and there are now hockey prospects coming out of bloody texas, for god\'s sake.

california is another huge success.

phoenix though... that was just a bad idea. and they screwed themselves with bad business decisions, such as building their new arena way the f out in glendale, when all their season ticket holders live on the other side of town. that team will not work in that location.. period.

2. buffalo will get hurt... because they will have less toronto maple leaf fans coming through their gates. cry me a frikin river. you know what the upside is here? they can try and qualify for league assistance, just like phoenix.

leave the team in phoenix and you have 1 terrible franchise that can\'t pay its own bills and one shaky franchise in buffalo.

move it to southern ontario and you still have a shaky franchise is buffalo, but now you also have a money printing machine to keep revenues up during the course of this recession.

toronto will NOT lose money. this cannot be argued. they will still sell out every game. and still sell merchandise to the leaf diaspora across NA. i also heard on the radio that MLSE doesn\'t have as much clout among the owners as one would think... basically, whenever they bring up a complaint or try to say that they\'re losing money, they get laughed at because the feeling is that if you are indeed losing money there, then you\'re incompetent.

i agree that it\'s unlikely that toronto will suffer (but i can understand them fighting it anyways).

i don\'t know... i think that even if buffalo is hurt by this... even a little bit, the NHL should look at other alternatives. Are you really telling me that southern ontario is the only place that can support an NHL team?

Are you really telling me there\'s no were else in this massive peice of land we call north america that they could put the team instead (without it impacting ANY current NHL teams)?

I don\'t know... i just don\'t get it... as it is... there\'s too many teams in the NY area (the isles have been suffering for a number of years)... and now they want to put another team in Southern Ontario (a region from which the sabres draw many of their fans).

I don\'t know... Sure Southern Ontario could support another team... but I almost guarentee that the fans that would support the Ontario Coyotes would cause Buffalo to start hemoraging money...

At that point, how is that any better? Why not put the team in a place where it will be successful and allow the other (currently afloat) NHL teams to stay afloat?

[goavsgo]

I have never met someone in my life that has gone to a Sabres game and I\'ve lived in London, Ontario all my years. Maybe some people right at the border go to those games regularly, but another team in Hamilton isn\'t going to change that. Aside from the 3 Leafs games per year in Buffalo, hardly any people from London,Hamilton,K/W are going regularly.

[mister_mcgoo]

lanky wrote:

1) By phoenix moving, it would set hockey in the \"west\" back several years, as they\'d basically be conceeding that it doesn\'t work. In my opinion, it can work (and for that matter, to certain extent already is)... there\'s just more problems with the economy in that area then there are most places...

Not sure what your definition of \'work\' is but Phoenix is a failure and the sooner people like you recognize it the better.

Lets consider the pros first. Its a huge city of 4.2+ million, plenty of people for a hockey team. The team is coached by the greatest player to ever play the game. Under Gretz and (Maloney I think is the GM?) the team has been steadily building and improving to the point where they are now perfectly poised to not only make the playoffs next year, but they look a lot like the next Chicago Blackhawks rebirth...the Phoenix is truly ready to rise from the ashes with all that young promising talent. And season tix are dirt cheap! $3500 for seats right behind the bench/penalty box! What do those seats cost in NY or Toronto, or Detroit?

Now the cons, depsite everything going for them they are behind only the Thrashers and the Islanders for worst attendence in the league. The \'official\' stats claim they average 14,875 out of a possible 17,799 which sounds OK but we all know how bogusly padded those numbers are because they don\'t count actual butts in seats, they count how many tickets were sold and they usually lie about even that to not look as bleak as they do. I\'ve never been to a Phoenix homegame but you can see on TV that at least half the seats are empty. And I HAVE been to multiple Thrashers games (IMO, Atlanta is a better hockey market) and I would be very surprised if they average 13,000 for just the weekend games during a playoff run, nevermind the reg season weekday games, its literally usually about 8-9,000 people for a Tue or Thu night game.

2) By moving the team to the Southern Ontario region, Basille would complicate the makeup of the teams already currently in that region. The relocated team would without a doubt \"steal\" revenue and fans from both Toronto and Buffalo... something that (at least buffalo), cannot afford at this point in time.

How does relocating a troubled team to a place where it may thrive, but puts another team in a bad situation make anything any better in the grande scheme of the league? You\'ve just switched which team is struggling... and it\'s not fair to Buffalo ownership to lose money just because Phoenix isn\'t working out and may need to relocate.

This is where I do agree with you that allowing another team in So. Ontario may not be good for the league as a whole. Its definitely something they\'d want to examine carefully to see how much of an impact it would have. Anyone have any estimates of how many season ticket holders for Buffalo are Canadian and would be impacted by this?

The main point of this though is that money talks and Basille has no shortage of that, that could end up the determining factor.

[lanky]

mister_mcgoo wrote:

Not sure what your definition of \'work\' is but Phoenix is a failure and the sooner people like you recognize it the better.

Lets consider the pros first. Its a huge city of 4.2+ million, plenty of people for a hockey team. The team is coached by the greatest player to ever play the game. Under Gretz and (Maloney I think is the GM?) the team has been steadily building and improving to the point where they are now perfectly poised to not only make the playoffs next year, but they look a lot like the next Chicago Blackhawks rebirth...the Phoenix is truly ready to rise from the ashes with all that young promising talent. And season tix are dirt cheap! $3500 for seats right behind the bench/penalty box! What do those seats cost in NY or Toronto, or Detroit?

Now the cons, depsite everything going for them they are behind only the Thrashers and the Islanders for worst attendence in the league. The \'official\' stats claim they average 14,875 out of a possible 17,799 which sounds OK but we all know how bogusly padded those numbers are because they don\'t count actual butts in seats, they count how many tickets were sold and they usually lie about even that to not look as bleak as they do. I\'ve never been to a Phoenix homegame but you can see on TV that at least half the seats are empty. And I HAVE been to multiple Thrashers games (IMO, Atlanta is a better hockey market) and I would be very surprised if they average 13,000 for just the weekend games during a playoff run, nevermind the reg season weekday games, its literally usually about 8-9,000 people for a Tue or Thu night game.

I still disagree with you on this point a little bit. Phoenix is a huge winter vacationing area for people up north (ie people that like hockey). I think the problem lies with the fact that not as many northern people are heading to their \"winter homes\" in the phoenix area with the slumping economy. This is one of the reasons that phoenix (and florida) have suffered economically more than most areas of the united states.

So i do believe that conditions can be condusive to hockey working in phoenix (especially if they can ice a successful, exciting, young team in a year or two and the economy improves throughout North America).

I don\'t know... this is just my take...

[metaldude26]

ultrawhiteness wrote:

metaldude26 wrote:

The only place that makes any sense from that perspective is Winnipeg. Imagine the \'Yotes ended up turning right back into the Jets!!!

oh god. come on now. say it with me: winnipeg. is. not. getting. a. team.

they just built a brand spanking new arena with the help of local and provincial government dollars and guess what? they built it too small for an NHL team. the city gov\'t is happy with a very successful AHL franchise.

I never said they were going there, I\'m in the city enough to see that it likely isn\'t a great market. Just pointing out that the only place that doesn\'t geographically impinge on anyone else is Winnipeg. I thought it was an hilarious idea that you\'d move a team, only to bring it right back 10-15 years later.

If we are bringing up the topic of the MTS center then I\'ll give you my take. From what I understood when it was being built was that they left the idea that should the NHL want to return to Winnipeg, the MTS Center could be renovated to accomodate NHL sized crowds. Maybe that was a load of bull but it\'s the buzz that was floating around at the time. Also consider that it\'s currently similar capacity as Pepsi Coliseum in Quebec City, or the old Winnipeg Arena which, did house NHL franchises at one point, though apparently unsuccessfully.