RIP Adam Johnson - dies as result of skate injury

[Grin]

It's a strange conversation. A buddy of mine has the opinion that we are too soft and argued that neck guards can't prevent ALL possible cuts, so we shouldn't bother making them mandatory. I responded with "wanting to prevent deaths from accidental neck cuts with skates makes me soft?" And "yes of course some cuts may still happen even with neck guards. Are you saying, that unless we can prevent them all guaranteed, then we shouldn't try to prevent any?" This mentality is baffling to me...

Rylant

I should stop wearing my seatbelt because they don't prevent all motor vehicle deaths

[pmorrow]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-67419951

[2014olympicgold]

Now I'm not going to say I know the laws in my own country, let alone another one, but I'm kinda surprised they can arrest someone for manslaughter when there's a risk of lethal injury every second in a job.

I guess it lays on proving what he did was deliberate?

[tweetdrivr]

Here’s the Athletic article..

https://theathletic.com/5063249/2023...shared_article

[PenguinHunter]

Now I'm not going to say I know the laws in my own country, let alone another one, but I'm kinda surprised they can arrest someone for manslaughter when there's a risk of lethal injury every second in a job.

I guess it lays on proving what he did was deliberate?

Is this not the same as driving down the highway... a 'lethal injury' could happen any time you are driving down a road... and we see manslaughter arrests of drivers all the time?

[Pengwin7]

Statements and questions, in this thread, are going to open this can of worms back up again.

Per article:
Det Ch Supt Becs Horsfall, from South Yorkshire Police, said: "We have been carrying out extensive inquiries...
She urged members of the public to refrain from "comment and speculation which could hinder" the police investigation.


I think we've exhausted the "hockey" part of the discussion.
I don't see it doing any of us any good to explore the lawful side of this.

At this point - the conversation is going to switch to non-hockey comments...
So if it continues... we probably need to consider pushing the thread to the non-hockey section.

[Canucks_fan18]

I think the police made the right call. Look at all the logical minds who have watched hockey for years on this forum alone, pretty well everyone concluded that was not a normal play.

[blayze]

Now I'm not going to say I know the laws in my own country, let alone another one, but I'm kinda surprised they can arrest someone for manslaughter when there's a risk of lethal injury every second in a job.

I guess it lays on proving what he did was deliberate?

It's not a question of deliberate... that's a dumb take, just like the guys at the front of the thread arguing he didn't try to murder someone. Well no shit sherlock...

It's a question of negligence and wrecklessness. There's a standard of competence and conduct that must be adhered to in various professions, especially ones where people can get really hurt.

If a surgeon ****s up a surgery and you die... should he not be arrested if he made a mistake he should not have made given his training, education and skills? If an engineer miscalculates something and a brand new bridge collapses, shouldn't he/she be held liable? If you're in a cab with a driver who's been drinking and driving and you get into an accident shouldn't that driver go to jail? He didn't deliberately crash the car...

[SeaDawg]

Someone who doesn't watch a lot of hockey might not see that play as reckless and dangerous, but those of us who watch a lot of hockey know that it was. Elite hockey players have incredible reflexes and control of their bodies (and their sticks) and make decisions all the time in a fraction of a second. IMO, Petgrave stuck out his leg in an attempt to hit Johnson and disrupt his progress as he was crossing the blueline. It was a desperate move by a player flying through the air.

That said, "intention" is a murky word and I wouldn't want to be the lawyer trying to convince a jury that Petgrave intended to injury Johnson. I feel certain he tried to hit Johnson, to knock him off balance/slow him down...I'm not so sure that he was intending to injury him. I also think Petgrave tried to hit Johnson with his legs and not his skate blade. Obviously we all feel great sympathy for Johnson and his family but this will be a tough case to prove in court, if it even goes that far.

[2014olympicgold]

Ya sorry guys, no need to jump down a throat of a poster who got voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter a little mixed up in my head....

The Manslaughter UK definition is "a person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when he or she intends an unlawful act that is likely to do harm to the person and death results which was neither foreseen nor intended."

They need to prove he wanted to raise his leg, and I would think you need to prove he raised his leg on purpose in a non-hockey move. From a legal standpoint this will be interesting. The last manslaughter charge I can think of is an Italian player that slashed a player in the chest that lead to a heart attack. And the Italian player plead guilty to the charge, so it's not like he fought against it really. But that act is different from this one.

[Godin]

Ya sorry guys, no need to jump down a throat of a poster who got voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter a little mixed up in my head....

The Manslaughter UK definition is "a person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when he or she intends an unlawful act that is likely to do harm to the person and death results which was neither foreseen nor intended."

They need to prove he wanted to raise his leg, and I would think you need to prove he raised his leg on purpose in a non-hockey move. From a legal standpoint this will be interesting. The last manslaughter charge I can think of is an Italian player that slashed a player in the chest that lead to a heart attack. And the Italian player plead guilty to the charge, so it's not like he fought against it really. But that act is different from this one.

Which is what happened here. Since the police in England are not familiar with the game of hockey, they did bring hockey experts in to help determine if this was a 'hockey play' or was it something more malicious. They obviously told the police that it was reckless and Petgrave needs to be held accountable.

In 2004, Todd Bertuzzi pled guilty to an assault charge for his attack on Steve Moore and was sentenced to 1 year probation. I don't think Petgrave will get much if anytime however, this will open the door very wide to a civil suit by Johnson's family.

[rtstr]

Ya sorry guys, no need to jump down a throat of a poster who got voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter a little mixed up in my head....

The Manslaughter UK definition is "a person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when he or she intends an unlawful act that is likely to do harm to the person and death results which was neither foreseen nor intended."

They need to prove he wanted to raise his leg, and I would think you need to prove he raised his leg on purpose in a non-hockey move. From a legal standpoint this will be interesting. The last manslaughter charge I can think of is an Italian player that slashed a player in the chest that lead to a heart attack. And the Italian player plead guilty to the charge, so it's not like he fought against it really. But that act is different from this one.

The key phrase in that definition is “unlawful”. A an illegal play in a sport is not an illegal act and doesn’t meet the definition of “unlawful”.

IÂ’m in the camp that wants Petgrave held responsible but IÂ’d think even a half-assed first year law student wouldn't have a problem getting this down to a much lesser charge, if anything at all. ItÂ’s good they charged him with manslaughter but if this continues to move forward I think the charge will be downgraded.

[2014olympicgold]

In the U16AAA Hockey Eastern Ontario League, a player was cut by a skate in the throat and was wearing a neck guard and received like 10 stiches and survived.

Bardown shared the post on their Insta if you want to look at it.

[rataylor22]

The key phrase in that definition is “unlawful”. A an illegal play in a sport is not an illegal act and doesn’t meet the definition of “unlawful”.

IÂ’m in the camp that wants Petgrave held responsible but IÂ’d think even a half-assed first year law student wouldn't have a problem getting this down to a much lesser charge, if anything at all. ItÂ’s good they charged him with manslaughter but if this continues to move forward I think the charge will be downgraded.

People are bad at reading, because very obviously at this point Petgrave has not been charged. Whole lot of people chiming in on a legal system they don't know anything about. The arrest is standard procedure to be able to question the subject. At this point, nothing more.

[PenguinHunter]

People are bad at reading, because very obviously at this point Petgrave has not been charged. Whole lot of people chiming in on a legal system they don't know anything about. The arrest is standard procedure to be able to question the subject. At this point, nothing more.

Is it standard procedure to be released on bail if there are no charges?

Or what needs to happen for someone to require to be released on bail.

Bail is when a person charged with a criminal offence is released from custody while awaiting their trial. An individual can be released with or without conditions that they must follow during their release. Not everyone who is charged with a crime receives bail

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/...eceives%20bail.

I realize the above is from a Canadian website. I just expect most 'bail systems' operate similarly.