Interesting debate on my League - REP

[finnys_fanatsy]

ok so we are on the final days of teh season, we have a potential for a three way tie.

GM in 1st cooks a deal with the GM thats just ahead of the 2nd place GM in SAVES to send "Goalie X" who played last night for like a 3rd round pick, just to keep the 2nd place GM behind in SAVES so he doesn't pass into 1st place.

on the surface that's brutally brilliant move..BUTTT, in a weird coincidence (maybe) the 2nd PLace GM asks the GM who just received "Goalie X" fro the same deal only an upgrade in picks from 3rd to 2nd rounder. GM says "no, id rather see you lose."

ok now its a HUUGE thing, new rules etc.

how do you see this? does the2nd Place GM have a legit beef, calling collusion...or is it sour grapes?

[Dennis]

I see it as all 3. Legit beef, collusion, and sour grapes all wrapped in one.

Institute a trade deadline to eliminate shenanigans like this in the future maybe?

[Daydream Nation]

I don't feel it is collusion. The team acquiring the goalie payed an adequate price and now he would prefer to keep the player. It is his right not to help another team. If the price would have miniscule than the 2nd place team would have a bigger beef. I've done things like this in terms of trading a player to a team for a lower price just because I don't care for the other owner who would have paid slightly more.

[Pengwin7]

For me, its the duty of all GMs to identify (shitty) rules that could lead to last minute match-up flips.
I raised hell in a league a few years ago where the trades were too instantaneous and one GM was (fairly, by rules) trading a 23rd round pick for a player playing Sunday (plus downgrade to 24th round pick).
And then he'd win that category of match-up.
And he did this 3-4 times... and I made a stink.
And everybody said "Why are you making a stink? - he's done this before".
I called it "bush league". It was. It is.
(And the GM, GMs doing it were NOT bad guys... at all... but they were also benefitting, and I was losing match-up points. That said - I wouldn't do this myself...)

But the issue was that the rule-set allowed it - and it really shouldn't.
Leagues *SHOULD* have a trade deadline. It is just stupid for trading to exist this deep in the league.
Leagues *SHOULD* have a 2+ day trade-hold... so that teams can't make instant trades like this.

Those are two major flaws in this league.
For anybody to raise issue now... I get it... it IS a "bush league" (term I grew up with) play by any and all GMs.
It's also within league rules.

I personally wouldn't do it... I feel it's a form of legal-cheating... against gentleman's rules...
But it is what it is.

There's no good way around it... other than to change the rules this summer so it doesn't happen again.
Commissioner is mainly at fault here, but so are all GMs for allowing trading this deep.
It's incredibly awful that nobody in this league had the foresight to know that trading this deep in season was a bad, bad, BAD idea.

Feel sorry for the GM getting hosed.
What a terrible rule condition for the league.
It'll leave a bad taste in several people's mouths for a long, long time, I think.

[2014olympicgold]

Holes in rules get exposed by exploitation. It's legal, but also shouldn't have been a hole to begin with.

I personally am all for people doing this stuff when it's shady, but close the hole in the offseason and move forward. No way should a league not have a trade deadline, and this is why.

I think the COVID yr I had a league where the deadline was the final week of the fantasy season. So everyone just waited until the deadline day to move players if they were out. Felt really weird, so I can't imagine allowing trades in the playoffs.

If I'm in this league and not apart of the trades, as a GM I'd be mad at the commish for not setting the league up correctly, but also would think that the leaguemates should have noticed this hole at some point prior to it being an issue.

[Daydream Nation]

Like others have said, you definitely need a trade deadline. With that said, I understand the team in second being mad but there is nothing to really be done about it.

[LawMan]

This is interesting and kind bizarre.

First, yeah, all leagues should have a trade deadline because if a single (rather minor) trade can effect standings to this degree it should not be allowed and all these shenanigans could be avoided.

So if I’m understanding this correctly, the GM in first traded a player to another team (Team Sour Grapes or SG), to improve SG in saves, to ensure the 2nd place team did not improve his rank in saves, and thus catch 1st overall GM? And for this the 1st GM also get a draft pick….

So that trade all makes sense, Team SG improves his team, Team 1 gets a draft pick. Kinda standard, trade. Although if SG is not in the running to place in the money this year, and goalie is not a keeper it is a little bit shady to begin with. Especially given what happens next.

I see you have a keep 20 so goalie could be a keeper. To me the whole legitimacy of the trade rests of whether or not Team 2 is
1. In the running; and
2. Going to keep goalie.

If SG is in the running for money then it is a fine "desperate move" trade, paying a price. If not, then he better be keeping the goalie, otherwise the trade does not help SG and only hurts Team 2, and this is shady and probably collusion.

Next, Team 2 tries to pounce, offers to let SG flip the Goalie for a 2nd. In isolation SG gets a quick draft flip, which could be a brilliant move. However SG declines, if SG truly values goalie more than a 2nd rounder this is again reasonable, every team gets to value their players on their own. Further, maybe he's trying to squeeze a desperate Team 2 up to a 1st, that would also be brilliant. In isolation this non-trade is not concerning, even though it would be an “upgrade” for SG. P

The fact that SG says “I want to see you lose” is obviously concerning and hints at collusion but again, my highlighted comments above are the factors I would use to determine if this was collusion.
If SG made a trade just to move from 5th to 4th overall (and there is no money there) and is not keeping Goalie then it's collusion and shady and I would encourage the Commish reverse it, because, there is NO UPSIDE to SG making the trade.

Also, get a trade deadline, 4-6 weeks before the end of the season so this does not happen again as it is not good for the league.

[audiopile]

Lame.

Trade deadline rule (before playoff rounds start ideally)and players traded for cannot be put into lineup until first Sunday or 3 day wait. Allowing GMs to trade for a player to insert for one game to win a category is not a league I would play in.

[finnys_fanatsy]

This is interesting and kind bizarre.

First, yeah, all leagues should have a trade deadline because if a single (rather minor) trade can effect standings to this degree it should not be allowed and all these shenanigans could be avoided.

So if I’m understanding this correctly, the GM in first traded a player to another team (Team Sour Grapes or SG), to improve SG in saves, to ensure the 2nd place team did not improve his rank in saves, and thus catch 1st overall GM? And for this the 1st GM also get a draft pick….

So that trade all makes sense, Team SG improves his team, Team 1 gets a draft pick. Kinda standard, trade. Although if SG is not in the running to place in the money this year, and goalie is not a keeper it is a little bit shady to begin with. Especially given what happens next.

I see you have a keep 20 so goalie could be a keeper. To me the whole legitimacy of the trade rests of whether or not Team 2 is
1. In the running; and
2. Going to keep goalie.

If SG is in the running for money then it is a fine "desperate move" trade, paying a price. If not, then he better be keeping the goalie, otherwise the trade does not help SG and only hurts Team 2, and this is shady and probably collusion.

Next, Team 2 tries to pounce, offers to let SG flip the Goalie for a 2nd. In isolation SG gets a quick draft flip, which could be a brilliant move. However SG declines, if SG truly values goalie more than a 2nd rounder this is again reasonable, every team gets to value their players on their own. Further, maybe he's trying to squeeze a desperate Team 2 up to a 1st, that would also be brilliant. In isolation this non-trade is not concerning, even though it would be an “upgrade” for SG. P

The fact that SG says “I want to see you lose” is obviously concerning and hints at collusion but again, my highlighted comments above are the factors I would use to determine if this was collusion.
If SG made a trade just to move from 5th to 4th overall (and there is no money there) and is not keeping Goalie then it's collusion and shady and I would encourage the Commish reverse it, because, there is NO UPSIDE to SG making the trade.

Also, get a trade deadline, 4-6 weeks before the end of the season so this does not happen again as it is not good for the league.

ok, kinda..

lets use names here:

Team in 1st - TM1
TEam in 2nd - SG2
third team involved - 3TI

TM1 traded (of all people) Kappo Kakhonen to 3TI for a 3rd rounder to keep SG2 from passing TM1 in Saves, this was a deal cooked between TM1 and 3TI. KK is obviously NOT a keeper.
SG2 asks 3TI to trade KK to him for a 2nd rounder because hes desperate..3TI says nope..im not, id rather see you lose.

a bit more, this league is now 15yrs old, and NEVER has this been an issue. we have never had a tie (let alone a possible 3-way), never needed a Trade deadline, we have no playoffs though either.

[2014olympicgold]

ok, kinda..

lets use names here:

Team in 1st - TM1
TEam in 2nd - SG2
third team involved - 3TI

TM1 traded (of all people) Kappo Kakhonen to 3TI for a 3rd rounder to keep SG2 from passing TM1 in Saves, this was a deal cooked between TM1 and 3TI. KK is obviously NOT a keeper.
SG2 asks 3TI to trade KK to him for a 2nd rounder because hes desperate..3TI says nope..im not, id rather see you lose.

a bit more, this league is now 15yrs old, and NEVER has this been an issue. we have never had a tie (let alone a possible 3-way), never needed a Trade deadline, we have no playoffs though either.

I don't think anyone did anything wrong based on rules and presumed history.

The 3rd place GM was going to make an enemy either way. He makes the 2nd trade and TM1 gets mad.

I'm fine with everything that happened. I would just discuss adding a trade deadline to maybe like Mid-March. It would just eliminate the issues going forward. I don't even think you can talk to any of the 3 GMs and say "come on, I know it's not illegal but come on".

[Chili con Carne]

It is lame and as others have said this can be corrected with a trade deadline.

In terms of collusion, my take is that this requires two (or more) managers to be in on it in order to qualify as such - if there was any discussion between the two managers in the initial trade about avoiding a subsequent trade with the second place team, and that was a condition of the trade, then yes, it is collusion. If this is simply one manager who has had bad experiences with the manager he/she would rather see lose, then it is what it is - relationships and history matter. Currency comes in many forms.

[hockeyrobot]

It is lame and as others have said this can be corrected with a trade deadline.

In terms of collusion, my take is that this requires two (or more) managers to be in on it in order to qualify as such - if there was any discussion between the two managers in the initial trade about avoiding a subsequent trade with the second place team, and that was a condition of the trade, then yes, it is collusion. If this is simply one manager who has had bad experiences with the manager he/she would rather see lose, then it is what it is - relationships and history matter. Currency comes in many forms.

Agree with most of the posts so far but this latest one sums it up nicely as well.

Put a trade deadline in next year. Easy.

[Pengwin7]

a bit more, this league is now 15yrs old, and NEVER has this been an issue. we have never had a tie (let alone a possible 3-way), never needed a Trade deadline, we have no playoffs though either.

(shaking head)

As an engineer, this reminds me of when I talk to a building contractor about their shitty framing that somebody flagged and they come to us hoping for us to OK it.
Them: "Can you just approve what we've done? I've been framing XXXX for 40 years and none of my buildings have ever had an issue".
Says I "How many times has this area reached the code-required storm loads?"
Them: (silence)
Says I "How many times has this area even reached 50% of the code required storm loads?"
Them: (slience)
Says I "Well... you got lucky. Everybody got lucky. And when the day comes when the big storm happens, fortunately for you, nobody is probably going around counting whose building have fallen down and whose are still standing... and you'll probably be retired."
Them: (silence)


Everybody in this league got absolutely lucky that this has never been an issue.
I would've brought this up in my first or second year in this league.
Shame on all of you. Seriously.

This was a storm that was eventually going to happen with time...
Welcome to the storm.

[tweetdrivr]

This is what trade deadlines are for. It’s shitty. I’d ask both GMs involved to leave. And institute a trade deadline.

[LawMan]

ok, kinda..

lets use names here:

Team in 1st - TM1
TEam in 2nd - SG2
third team involved - 3TI

TM1 traded (of all people) Kappo Kakhonen to 3TI for a 3rd rounder to keep SG2 from passing TM1 in Saves, this was a deal cooked between TM1 and 3TI. KK is obviously NOT a keeper.
SG2 asks 3TI to trade KK to him for a 2nd rounder because hes desperate..3TI says nope..im not, id rather see you lose.

a bit more, this league is now 15yrs old, and NEVER has this been an issue. we have never had a tie (let alone a possible 3-way), never needed a Trade deadline, we have no playoffs though either.

Lots of opinions and again ... get a trade deadline. That solves the issue for NEXT YEAR.
You did not mention if SG2 has the potential to finish "in the money" I'm going to assume NOT, if that is wrong let us know.

For this year, as a Commish who wants what is equitable, I would reverse this trade because it is in my collusion... Here is why..

Simply put, the trade does not allow SG to compete for money (assumption). So he's doing it ONLY to hurt 3TI, and doing it with the input and in agreement with TM1. AND in the process makes his own team slightly worse (gives up a pick).
Fundamentally there is no difference between doing this trade and having SG trade a top-tier (non-keeper) stud to TM1 for scraps. A
Again, two teams (TM1 and SG) got together and worked out a trade that did not help (and actually hurt) one team (SG) (short or long-term) just to increase the other team's (TM1) chance of winning.

That. Is. Collusion.