Seider REP

[SeaDawg]

It's so funny you mention this Seadawg. Check out this PP bomb on Monday night. When I first saw it I thought "great shot" but it definitely looked like awkward mechanics to get it off and not sure how repeatable, and one-timer bombs from the point is all about SMOOTH and REPEATABILITY.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/moritz-sei...005435360.html

Yeah, that is just awkward looking for sure, and I know he has been working on his shot and trying to improve it. He has admitted it is a weak part of his game in interviews I have read/watched. I have also watched lots of footage of him playing in the SHL, and I have conversed with fans who regularly watch SHL games. He rarely shoots, and even more rarely does he take a slap shot.

I think/hope it is a mechanical issue that he can resolve with coaching help at the NHL level. I know, again from his own words, that he has always been more concerned with reliable defense, position, and physical play than his shooting.

I am not being critical of Seider in general terms. I know he is a stud and can do so many things extremely well. He just has to figure out how to shoot better if he wants to become a point-producing power play option for the Wings.

[Pengwin7]

Jeebus... you guys aren't really getting on the guy about his mechanics behind this shot...
(You know... when there's that thread about "have you played" - this is the stuff)

I grew up playing defense - one-timing a puck is VERY difficult... and mostly because you're playing (throughout a career) with thousands of different guys who all pass the pucks at different weights/speeds and to different wheelhouse-spots.
It's going to take Seider (and most young defensemen, especially larger guys) some time to get used to that. [By physics, the longer the swing radius, the more difficult it is to time. Easier for shorter players/radii.]

[Maybe, if you played baseball... equivalent might be facing pitchers with different deliveries, pitch-types, locating, speeds.]

The big BENEFIT of being an NHL PRO is that the passes get better and more reliable.
You play with the same 16-17 other skaters and you really get used to their passing.

If a player's body looks a bit off ("mechanics") on a one-timer... it's because they realize in-a-fraction-of-a-second that their original follow-through isn't timed perfectedly right and they either need to slow down a hair or speed up a hair to meet that puck.
The POINT is... he met the puck perfectly.
THAT is the important part. And that's DAMN impressive.

That shot will look cleaner and cleaner... not because his shot needs ANY improvement... but because he'll mentally learn the timing of whoever is commonly feeding him those pucks off the right-side half-wall of the PP.
(That right half-wall forward is going to be consistent too... one, two... maybe 3 different DET fwds will be used there.)
It won't take him long to learn that either.

Hockey players are (generally) humble people... so a good one won't ever say "That pass was too slow" or "that pass was behind me".
They'll say "I'm working on my shot".

Part of reason Det/StevieY love Seider is his demeanor.

But this shot... for me... is more impressive that he hit it cleanly at this early, early stage of his NHL career.
He's gonna be a hell of a player and this shot is more evidence of it.

[ross10019]

Jeebus... you guys aren't really getting on the guy about his mechanics behind this shot...
(You know... when there's that thread about "have you played" - this is the stuff)

I grew up playing defense - one-timing a puck is VERY difficult... and mostly because you're playing (throughout a career) with thousands of different guys who all pass the pucks at different weights/speeds and to different wheelhouse-spots.
It's going to take Seider (and most young defensemen, especially larger guys) some time to get used to that. [By physics, the longer the swing radius, the more difficult it is to time. Easier for shorter players/radii.]

[Maybe, if you played baseball... equivalent might be facing pitchers with different deliveries, pitch-types, locating, speeds.]

The big BENEFIT of being an NHL PRO is that the passes get better and more reliable.
You play with the same 16-17 other skaters and you really get used to their passing.

If a player's body looks a bit off ("mechanics") on a one-timer... it's because they realize in-a-fraction-of-a-second that their original follow-through isn't timed perfectedly right and they either need to slow down a hair or speed up a hair to meet that puck.
The POINT is... he met the puck perfectly.
THAT is the important part. And that's DAMN impressive.

That shot will look cleaner and cleaner... not because his shot needs ANY improvement... but because he'll mentally learn the timing of whoever is commonly feeding him those pucks off the right-side half-wall of the PP.
(That right half-wall forward is going to be consistent too... one, two... maybe 3 different DET fwds will be used there.)
It won't take him long to learn that either.

Hockey players are (generally) humble people... so a good one won't ever say "That pass was too slow" or "that pass was behind me".
They'll say "I'm working on my shot".

Part of reason Det/StevieY love Seider is his demeanor.

But this shot... for me... is more impressive that he hit it cleanly at this early, early stage of his NHL career.
He's gonna be a hell of a player and this shot is more evidence of it.

OK, first off, I played D for years and still play D for my beer league team - I know how hard it is to get one timers off, have whiffed on more than a handful! But when you catch one, boy is it sweet.

Point taken about Seider, I was just responding to Seadawg's point, and I did think as much as the shot was terrific the mechanics looked a little awkward. Seider will have a much greater impact if he's a threat to shoot from the point, although that element is fast becoming secondary to the playmaking Dman - Fox versus Weber is a great example. Saw Rangers v Devils last night and Fox is all about looking for the pass, shooting only when a lane is open, check out video of his beauty feed to Zibanejad for his one timer PP goal last night.

[Pengwin7]

^Good to hear you get it.
It quite sounded like you and SeaDawg were finding reasons to doubt on Seider.
I've seen no flaws in his game for a rookie D of his size.
He's going to be incredible.

[ross10019]

^Good to hear you get it.
It quite sounded like you and SeaDawg were finding reasons to doubt on Seider.
I've seen no flaws in his game for a rookie D of his size.
He's going to be incredible.

Well he did get totally burned on this play. LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwLaCRSwSY

[Pengwin7]

True. That one he misses. His skate almost gets the puck... but he should've known he had help to his left. (To his right, that player had to mark).
D always look bad when they are straight-lined across - you have this intrinsic feeling that you've got help... and the other guy thinks that too... and then the guy is between you. #Hesitancy

Yah, every D is going to get burned like that from time-to-time, even 95% of vets.
But - yup, he did get burned!

[ross10019]

True. That one he misses. His skate almost gets the puck... but he should've known he had help to his left. (To his right, that player had to mark).
D always look bad when they are straight-lined across - you have this intrinsic feeling that you've got help... and the other guy thinks that too... and then the guy is between you. #Hesitancy

Yah, every D is going to get burned like that from time-to-time, even 95% of vets.
But - yup, he did get burned!

I bet you that doesn't happen to Seider again this year. He's going to take the body the rest of the season, as he should have here.

[SeaDawg]

^Good to hear you get it.
It quite sounded like you and SeaDawg were finding reasons to doubt on Seider.
I've seen no flaws in his game for a rookie D of his size.
He's going to be incredible.

Time will tell, Pengwin. I hope Seider's game evolves to the point where he can be a quality shooter, but I'm telling you that right now he is definitely not. This isn't just me saying this either. If you dig up some scouting reports on his performance in the SHL last year, or find some interviews in which he is asked where he needs to work on his game, this is a common theme. You don't have to take my word for it, but it will be clear by about the 30th game mark. I don't know what the average number of shots on net are for an NHL dman, but you will see over time that he does not shoot much and you will rarely see him take a slap shot.

If I'm wrong on this, then I apologize but I'm saying what I have extensively seen and read about over the last two seasons.

EDIT: Also, I KNOW he will be incredible. I only raise the shooting issue because, at this point, it is the one area of his game that needs work. If he can get it to even average-level, he can and will be a Norris contender. If he can't, he will never put up the offensive numbers to be a Norris winner. Not that I think a Norris winner needs to put up 55+ pts, but historically that is what it takes and right now Seider does not have the shot to put up that many points.

EDIT2: Given what I have seen from Seider, the way he plays the game...I'd say he focuses on defense, joining the rush when he can, excellent passer and transition player, but he doesn't have a shooting mentality. He reminds me a bit of Suter in that regard. If that doesn't change, I think he is capped at 45-50 pts at best. Nothing at all wrong with that. Suter, for example, had a career high of only 51 pts. He had a hell of a good career, but never won a Norris trophy, though, because (like it or not) he never scored enough points. I'm saying right now that if Seider can get his shot to the next level, both in terms of quantity and quality, I think he can win the Norris. So, despite this sounding perhaps like I'm down on him, I'm in fact extremely high on him and am calling him a potential Norris trophy winner, and he hasn't even played a single NHL game yet.

[mdratch]

Time will tell, Pengwin. I hope Seider's game evolves to the point where he can be a quality shooter, but I'm telling you that right now he is definitely not. This isn't just me saying this either. If you dig up some scouting reports on his performance in the SHL last year, or find some interviews in which he is asked where he needs to work on his game, this is a common theme. You don't have to take my word for it, but it will be clear by about the 30th game mark. I don't know what the average number of shots on net are for an NHL dman, but you will see over time that he does not shoot much and you will rarely see him take a slap shot.

If I'm wrong on this, then I apologize but I'm saying what I have extensively seen and read about over the last two seasons.

EDIT: Also, I KNOW he will be incredible. I only raise the shooting issue because, at this point, it is the one area of his game that needs work. If he can get it to even average-level, he can and will be a Norris contender. If he can't, he will never put up the offensive numbers to be a Norris winner. Not that I think a Norris winner needs to put up 55+ pts, but historically that is what it takes and right now Seider does not have the shot to put up that many points.

EDIT2: Given what I have seen from Seider, the way he plays the game...I'd say he focuses on defense, joining the rush when he can, excellent passer and transition player, but he doesn't have a shooting mentality. He reminds me a bit of Suter in that regard. If that doesn't change, I think he is capped at 45-50 pts at best. Nothing at all wrong with that. Suter, for example, had a career high of only 51 pts. He had a hell of a good career, but never won a Norris trophy, though, because (like it or not) he never scored enough points. I'm saying right now that if Seider can get his shot to the next level, both in terms of quantity and quality, I think he can win the Norris. So, despite this sounding perhaps like I'm down on him, I'm in fact extremely high on him and am calling him a potential Norris trophy winner, and he hasn't even played a single NHL game yet.

I'm not sure I agree that you have to have a great shot as Dman to get 55+ points. Neither Fox or Quinn Hughes have much of a shot, and they are definitely going to break 55 points in a full season. If Seider's puck distribution and vision are good enough and Detroit's forwards develop into great half wall shooters, I see no reason why he can't break 55 points with most being assists.

Also, Suter played for Minnesota who have rarely been known for their dynamic offence or high scoring forwards.. They have played in a rather defensive system for a long time, which I think is a big aspect to Suter's top season being 51 points. He was 5 points off the leading scorer of his team that year, Mikko Koivu who had 56 points.

[SeaDawg]

I'm not sure I agree that you have to have a great shot as Dman to get 55+ points. Neither Fox or Quinn Hughes have much of a shot, and they are definitely going to break 55 points in a full season. If Seider's puck distribution and vision are good enough and Detroit's forwards develop into great half wall shooters, I see no reason why he can't break 55 points with most being assists.

Also, Suter played for Minnesota who have rarely been known for their dynamic offence or high scoring forwards.. They have played in a rather defensive system for a long time, which I think is a big aspect to Suter's top season being 51 points. He was 5 points off the leading scorer of his team that year, Mikko Koivu who had 56 points.

True, and by no means am I saying it isn't possible. However, Seider's issue isn't just the velocity (which for a guy his size leaves a lot to be desired), nor the quantity (he doesn't shoot enough to make him a threat on the power play), but he also has to work on getting the shots he does take through, be it a wrist shot (which is his go-to shot) or his slap shot.

Again, at his age and given the incredibly impressive progression he continues to make each year, I think he can possibly get there. I'm merely pointing out where he is at with his current game and why he will likely not be a high point-producing dman for a few years at least (or ever if he doesn't improve in this area).

[SeaDawg]

5 shots on goal for him last night. He certainly seems a lot more comfortable shooting the puck than I have seen from him in the past. I didn't watch the game against Columbus, but I see he had 4 shots in that game. As I mentioned, I know it is a part of his game that he has really been working on. Cross fingers that he's starting to figure it out.