Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

[2014olympicgold]

Funny this is kinda like Robidas Island, but it needs to be renamed since....

Leafs announce Stephane Robidas will be departing the organization at the end of June. He is set to become head coach of the Magog Cannonniers (QMAAA). Robidas was employed by the team in a player development role. AKA, "here's a job to saw sorry about the Robidas Island thing"

[Turbo_Supremo]

I think there are 2 different trains of thought going on here; One being teams using players on LTIR to circumvent the salary cap, and the other being once playoffs start, the salary cap goes away and players coming off of IR are able to slot into the team without the team needing to drop/waive players to make space.

The first part, teams using LTIR to gain cap space is nothing new, this will never go away.

Players being stashed on IR for a season only to be activated once playoffs start; Other than Kucherov this season, the only other extreme example of this I believe is when Toews with Chicago came off IR during playoffs and helped them win. This is a very rare instance for a player of Kucherov's caliber being on LTIR for the whole season. Once Tampa knew they were locked into a playoff spot, there would be no incentive to take him off LTIR earlier. If Tampa wins the cup this year, maybe, MAYBE, there may be 4-5 owners who say that a system needs to be in place to prevent this kind of 'Advantage' from happening again... but if it only happens once every 10 years, then really, the league won't do anything.

How about this for an example; Eichel decides to get surgery now, and is out for 'most' of next season. A team like Carolina goes and trades for him, just to have him sit on IR for the season knowing they are strong enough to make the playoffs without him. Once playoffs start, he is activated off IR, and help pushes the team to win a cup. Instances like THAT would likely cause GM's to make changes to the rules, but for now, I don't see anything wrong with it, nor do I see any rule changes being made because of it.

[Axeman33]

But what Tampa has done is the most egregious abuse we have ever seen. Think back to the offseason. Tampa was desperately trying to get under the cap and players would not waive their no-move clause. Then, voila! Kucherov is on LTIR for the entire season solving their cap problems for this season but is back apparently fully healthy for the playoffs. Hey, I follow the Blackhawks so I know how teams get around the salary cap but this just feels like too much of an abuse.

And that's a great chart you posted. Many teams have LTIR of injured, retired players or those that are out for the rest of the season. According to Cap Friendly, Tampa only has a little over 6 M of that 17.2 M over the cap amount you posted not playing. That's 12% over the cap. I wouldn't be surprised if some new rules are created due to this season if Tampa goes on to win the Cup. Not to mention the below market deals that players signed due to Florida's lack of state income taxes.

If he wasn't truly injured, I could agree with this statement, but clearly, sitting out the entire season, he WAS clearly injured. If anything, people are surprised he is even back playing right now. They didn't abuse anything. They used the tools in front of them that have been there, used by other teams for years.

Teams can't just arbitrarily place players on LTIR. They have to actually be injured.

[kovalchuk17]

i have no issue with it as it is within the rules and has been abused for a long long time. only the rich and/or best teams abuse it as far as TB has and im alright with it because the more player salary being paid out means the players are making more money as a whole. i do not want a situation where you can only LTIR say a portion of a player's salary, that means there's a few million dollars less to go around to the players. in enough cases like henrik zetterberg or brent seabrook they really cannot play another game for their long-term safety.

injury recovery is extremely subjective and theres definitely a mentality of 'better to be careful' rather than rushing a player back too soon so it will be extremely difficult to enforce LTIR abuse. healthy enough to play and healthy enough to not reinjure are too different things in many cases.

[Rylant]

I have always felt these are strange conversations. I understand why people have them, but if it’s within the rules, what’s wrong with teams taking advantage of it? If it’s a big enough problem, then make it so it can’t be done within the rules.

The whole New Jersey fine with the Kovalchuk fiasco baffled me. We are getting punished, pretty significantly, for doing something that is completely allowed within the confines of the rules?

Rylant

[Daydream Nation]

If he wasn't truly injured, I could agree with this statement, but clearly, sitting out the entire season, he WAS clearly injured. If anything, people are surprised he is even back playing right now. They didn't abuse anything. They used the tools in front of them that have been there, used by other teams for years.

Teams can't just arbitrarily place players on LTIR. They have to actually be injured.

I am not doubting he had surgery. The timing and context of the situation is what makes it suspicious. Tampa was trying desperately to get under the cap, they can't move Johnson, and then magically their 9.5 M player who just had a wonderful playoffs has to have surgery that makes him miss the season but he'll be back for the start of the playoffs.

Some people like to point to Kane's injury in 2015. He sustained a crushing hit and a broken collarbone which made him miss the last month of the season which allowed the Hawks to acquire Vermette. There was no discussion of cap circumvention or any kind of shenanigans since the injury and rehab timeline was pretty standard . Kane was expected to miss the beginning of the playoffs and surprised many when he was able to start game 1. The Hawks definitely benefited from fortunate timing but nobody was happy when Kane was a crumpled mess on the ice. I don't recall any real complaints about it until Anaheim started complaining that summer.

I think this should result in a rules change for playoff payrolls.

[Sidenown]

Some people like to point to Kane's injury in 2015. He sustained a crushing hit and a broken collarbone which made him miss the last month of the season which allowed the Hawks to acquire Vermette. There was no discussion of cap circumvention or any kind of shenanigans since the injury and rehab timeline was pretty standard . Kane was expected to miss the beginning of the playoffs and surprised many when he was able to start game 1. The Hawks definitely benefited from fortunate timing but nobody was happy when Kane was a crumpled mess on the ice. I don't recall any real complaints about it until Anaheim started complaining that summer.

I might be missing the point so apologies if I am, but this seems like the exact same thing. Kucherov I am sure wasn't happy to have surgery and have to go through the recovery process and miss a full season of his career. It seems folks are getting annoyed that he didn't come back immediately when he could have, which is really no different than boston sitting out all their stars in the final regular season game. When everything is settled, and you have a player coming off major surgery why would you put him into games that don't matter? If it helps your cap situation all the better

The history of the playoffs are rife with players playing with injuries that they would never suit up for a regular season game for, and they still look great on the ice. We honestly don't know when Kuch "should" have come back, and we are talking about a week and a half difference? maybe two? compared to Seguin coming back, and as soon as Dallas was eliminated Seguin was back out of the lineup. Tampa was lucky enough to be good enough to weather this storm, it seems suspect because this super specific set of circumstances comes up so rarely to be "taken advantage of" in this specific way

[Daydream Nation]

I might be missing the point so apologies if I am, but this seems like the exact same thing. Kucherov I am sure wasn't happy to have surgery and have to go through the recovery process and miss a full season of his career. It seems folks are getting annoyed that he didn't come back immediately when he could have, which is really no different than boston sitting out all their stars in the final regular season game. When everything is settled, and you have a player coming off major surgery why would you put him into games that don't matter? If it helps your cap situation all the better

The difference is the Hawks were compliant with the cap at the start of the year and no one questioned the injury and recovery. I questioned the timing of Kucherov's injury, surgery, and rehab right from the beginning. Tampa was going to have to make some painful trades to get under the cap until Kucherov's LTIR solved their problem. I wouldn't disagree with anyone suggesting a rules change based on Kane's 2015 injury and how it played out. I just don't think there was anything sneaky about it. I was watching the game when Kane was hurt and we all thought he was done for the season.

[Sidenown]

The difference is the Hawks were compliant with the cap at the start of the year and no one questioned the injury and recovery. I questioned the timing of Kucherov's injury, surgery, and rehab right from the beginning. Tampa was going to have to make some painful trades to get under the cap until Kucherov's LTIR solved their problem. I wouldn't disagree with anyone suggesting a rules change based on Kane's 2015 injury and how it played out. I just don't think there was anything sneaky about it. I was watching the game when Kane was hurt and we all thought he was done for the season.

I guess we just disagree on the suspiciousness. I don't see why it matters whether a team is cap compliant to start the season vs. mid-season, kind of an arbitrary date, either way they have to manage the situation within the rules and both Chicago and Tampa benefited to some degree within these situations. Tampa knew in the playoffs he would need to surgery likely, so probably had an inkling that they could afford not make rash trades. The recovery time wasn't excessive based on the procedure and comparisons to other players going through hip surgery. So other than that I don't see what's suspicious unless he didn't really need the surgery, which I think we agree Kucherov wouldn't have put his body through an unnecessary procedure.

[Axeman33]

The difference is the Hawks were compliant with the cap at the start of the year and no one questioned the injury and recovery. I questioned the timing of Kucherov's injury, surgery, and rehab right from the beginning. Tampa was going to have to make some painful trades to get under the cap until Kucherov's LTIR solved their problem. I wouldn't disagree with anyone suggesting a rules change based on Kane's 2015 injury and how it played out. I just don't think there was anything sneaky about it. I was watching the game when Kane was hurt and we all thought he was done for the season.

Do you really think Kucherov wanted to sit out the year just so the team could be keep under the cap?

[Daydream Nation]

Do you really think Kucherov wanted to sit out the year just so the team could be keep under the cap?

I'm not sure. He was paid. Why would the team try so hard to get under the cap and then as a seemingly last resort Kucherov go on LTIR for the year? It's very suspicious in my mind.

[Sidenown]

I'm not sure. He was paid. Why would the team try so hard to get under the cap and then as a seemingly last resort Kucherov go on LTIR for the year? It's very suspicious in my mind.

I feel like you have never spoken to an athlete before. These guys are among the most competitive people on earth. Guys at Kuch's level work their asses off to get where they are; past injuries like this, and the perception of them, also affect future earning potential so there is legitimately 0% chance that Kucherov sits out the season unless the injury is severe enough to keep him out of nearly all the season. He had hip surgery, his recovery came in right around the length expected for that (see Seguin). So I fail to see the suspicious aspect unless you think they never did the surgery or found a dr. to perform said surgery on an uninjured man, and in either case I have some ocean front property in Iowa that I can offer you for a steal

[ericdaoust]

Every player has some physical issues. It's a rough game. It's not difficult to mark someone as injured when need be. Teams can get around this.

I'm not doubting Kucherov. He had major surgery. I just think he was previously ready to go and took his time coming back for the good of the team. Now the playoffs are here and the full band is together for one more run before some serious decisions have to be taken.

[VincentVega]

If it's within the rules, why wouldn't teams take advantage if they can? NHL needs to fix this as it doesn't make sense to have a cap for the regular season only.

[stevegamer]

The only solution to the problem some here see is a playoffs cap. That fixes not only the issue that some people have with players getting healthy for the playoffs and then being over a cap, but also playing a young guy specifically for the playoffs (even after just signing) when he hasn't played in the NHL all year.

Look, I doubt anyone wants to argue that Kucherov wasn't injured, if you do, please reply to this point specifically.

The rules are the rules. Everyone plays by them, and if you're smarter than others about obeying them, you reap the rewards. Is there possibly a reason to change the rules? Yes, but as others have said, salary cap isn't a fixed number, it goes by days worked, in this case, on the roster.

If you want to assign someone's whole annual salary to the team they are currently on, that doesn't work at all for a real world scenario. It simply fails accounting 001.

I'd be interested to see if there are cap leagues that work like the NHL's but everyone I've seen is you add up everyone's annual salary and it must be under the cap.

The NHL's works more like a giant pile of money paid out everyday and teams cannot deplete their pile. We shouldn't be thinking of Kucherov's cap-hit as being $9.5M for the season but being (roughly) $50k every day he is on the roster during the season.

I am in a cap league where the active roster has a salary cap that has to be met daily, but players in the minors or on IR don't count towards that cap. It's not quite to the same level, but it's a closer approximation, as you get a pile of money per day that cannot be over a limit, and cannot exceed it. To try and capture daily savings amounts and roll that forward would require an amount of accounting programming that would bring little return on investment for fantasy sites.