Norris nominees announced

[lucafen4]

Of the finalists it’ll likely be Giordano though.

Agreed.

This award is becoming a bit of a joke. It no longer has anything to do with actual Defence for defencemen

[rataylor22]

Agreed.

This award is becoming a bit of a joke. It no longer has anything to do with actual Defence for defencemen

I'm just saying....Gio had the 4th best Corsi among defencemen with a 51% ZS and the second most SHTOI/g on his team and first most PPTOI/g. He literally played all situations, almost scored a PPG, faced the toughest matchup every night and usually won, performing as a true shut down defencemen. Playing defence is definitely a requirement of being a defenceman, but so is creating offense. What area would you say Giordano is defensively deficient?

[lucafen4]

I'm just saying....Gio had the 4th best Corsi among defencemen with a 51% ZS and the second most SHTOI/g on his team and first most PPTOI/g. He literally played all situations, almost scored a PPG, faced the toughest matchup every night and usually won, performing as a true shut down defencemen. Playing defence is definitely a requirement of being a defenceman, but so is creating offense. What area would you say Giordano is defensively deficient?

My comment was a general one about the award as a whole, not about one specific Dman that has been nominated.

If a Dman puts up 45pts, It's unheard of he gets even consideration for a finalist slot because he didn't put up enough points. Points trump all other considerations when voting for this award. If Gio led in every measurable defensive stat and put up 45pts this season... hes' not a finalist. Even if he put up 60pts. I doubt he gets consideration.

that was my point.

The fact Gio has good numbers all around is secondary to his point total. You must have an elite offensive season to become a finalist for the award.

I think Karlsson's Norris trophy's would argue D is not a primary requirement. And yes I'm saying he (Karlsson) is not a great defensive defenceman.

[rataylor22]

My comment was a general one about the award as a whole, not about one specific Dman that has been nominated.

If a Dman puts up 45pts, It's unheard of he gets even consideration for a finalist slot because he didn't put up enough points. Points trump all other considerations when voting for this award. If Gio led in every measurable defensive stat and put up 45pts this season... hes' not a finalist. Even if he put up 60pts. I doubt he gets consideration.

that was my point.

The fact Gio has good numbers all around is secondary to his point total. You must have an elite offensive season to become a finalist for the award.

I think Karlsson's Norris trophy's would argue D is not a primary requirement. And yes I'm saying he (Karlsson) is not a great defensive defenceman.

The goal of hockey is to score more goals than the other team. Whether you do that through offence or defense, both contribute to the overall end goal. So if a player puts up an elite defensive season and scores 45 points, and another player puts up a "good" defensive season but scores 80, well then the difference between "elite" and "good" has to be preventing somewhere around an extra 20ish goals, which is close to impossible.

While Karlsson is not a "great" defensive defenseman, he's still well above average defensively, so a different player would have to be better defensively by a larger gap than Karlsson was offensively to say he was a more deserving candidate. There's a reason players get paid for production. That's what wins.

[lucafen4]

The goal of hockey is to score more goals than the other team. Whether you do that through offence or defense, both contribute to the overall end goal. So if a player puts up an elite defensive season and scores 45 points, and another player puts up a "good" defensive season but scores 80, well then the difference between "elite" and "good" has to be preventing somewhere around an extra 20ish goals, which is close to impossible.

While Karlsson is not a "great" defensive defenseman, he's still well above average defensively, so a different player would have to be better defensively by a larger gap than Karlsson was offensively to say he was a more deserving candidate. There's a reason players get paid for production. That's what wins.

one on one... Give me Vlasic over Karlsson 100/100 times

[rataylor22]

lol

[lucafen4]

lol

Defending ... 'lol'

McDavid coming into the zone - 1Dman back - give me Vlasic 100/100 over Karlsson to defend.

[B3tt3rMan]

Gio for me.

[Rylant]

The goal of hockey is to score more goals than the other team. Whether you do that through offence or defense, both contribute to the overall end goal. So if a player puts up an elite defensive season and scores 45 points, and another player puts up a "good" defensive season but scores 80, well then the difference between "elite" and "good" has to be preventing somewhere around an extra 20ish goals, which is close to impossible.

While Karlsson is not a "great" defensive defenseman, he's still well above average defensively, so a different player would have to be better defensively by a larger gap than Karlsson was offensively to say he was a more deserving candidate. There's a reason players get paid for production. That's what wins.

No question I agree with you here. Preventing a goal is JUST as important as scoring a goal. The difference is, that it is much more difficult to keep track of "goals prevented". From a scoreboard perspective, that is why I think they gravitate more to overall points for the Norris. It's easier to keep score of, even if it is cheap.

Rylant

[lucafen4]

No question I agree with you here. Preventing a goal is JUST as important as scoring a goal. The difference is, that it is much more difficult to keep track of "goals prevented". From a scoreboard perspective, that is why I think they gravitate more to overall points for the Norris. It's easier to keep score of, even if it is cheap.

Rylant

They can quantify it for forwards

[Rylant]

They can quantify it for forwards

Yes they can. However, it isn't as easy. Also, with the Selke trophy, that is the only criteria; who is the best defensive forward? When you take offensive and defensive into consideration for the Norris, it complicates things. If you have 2 great defensemen, but one is significantly more offensive than the other, who do you give the nod to? How do you quantify that? It becomes a bit of a murky situation.

This is very much the same thing as the Hart Trophy, which is supposed to go to the player deemed most valuable to his team. Well how do you measure that? Often time, like the Norris, the Hart trophy just turns into "the trophy awarded to the guy with the most points".

Rylant

[rataylor22]

Yes they can. However, it isn't as easy. Also, with the Selke trophy, that is the only criteria; who is the best defensive forward? When you take offensive and defensive into consideration for the Norris, it complicates things. If you have 2 great defensemen, but one is significantly more offensive than the other, who do you give the nod to? How do you quantify that? It becomes a bit of a murky situation.

This is very much the same thing as the Hart Trophy, which is supposed to go to the player deemed most valuable to his team. Well how do you measure that? Often time, like the Norris, the Hart trophy just turns into "the trophy awarded to the guy with the most points".

Rylant

O'Reilly, Stone, and Bergeron all scored close to or over a point per game. Let's not pretend like voters don't factor offensive production into the Selke. Was Bergeron a better defensive forward in 65 games than Soderberg was in 82? I dunno, but he scored 30 more points (also probably not, and Bergeron didn't really deserve a nom this year).

[kevinsrangers]

gio for my vote.

[Rylant]

O'Reilly, Stone, and Bergeron all scored close to or over a point per game. Let's not pretend like voters don't factor offensive production into the Selke. Was Bergeron a better defensive forward in 65 games than Soderberg was in 82? I dunno, but he scored 30 more points (also probably not, and Bergeron didn't really deserve a nom this year).

Oh no question offense plays a factor, I just don't think it plays as much as a factor as it would in the Norris Trophy. With the Vezina, it is a largely stat driven trophy. Yes, there are other factors, but I think it is easier to come up with than the Norris or Hart.

Rylant

[StuntMan12]

1st. Giordano
2nd. Burns
3rd. Hedman