TRUMP

[PrairieDog]

Is this basically another form of 'You're asking me to be tolerant, but you're intolerant of intolerance, so therefore you're also intolerant?'

I'm intolerant of people who try to silence dissenters and attack them for having different points of view. I'm intolerant when I'm told I have to act and believe in a certain way because of the colour of my skin or gender.

I actually am quite shocked that multiple people are trying to downplay the importance of the United States of America, regardless of the party they represent, telling the truth on things. Like, in what universe is this idea controversial in any way?

Who is downplaying the importance of the US (or the West?). I'm saying that our culture is very important, it's (the West) the best civilisation humans have ever created, and it's worth preserving. I'm stating the truth, why are you shocked? What's controversial about saying Western Civilisation is the best humans have ever done? No one has ever had it better than in 21st century Western Civilisation.

Don't compare us now to some Utopic ideal of what a perfect society would look like. Compare us to the history and present state of humanity and ourselves in the past. Bigotry, racism, sexism and oppresion will always exist - but here (the West) we are working on it and it's better than anywhere else in the world.

What countries are people trying to get away from? Not ours. What countries are people trying to get TO? OURS.

That's not controversial, it's a fact.

[doulos]

I'm intolerant of people who try to silence dissenters and attack them for having different points of view. I'm intolerant when I'm told I have to act and believe in a certain way because of the colour of my skin or gender.

Are there situations where it is important, or perhaps even necessary, to call out specific behaviours for being detrimental to society. Let's say, someone who says all people of a certain ethnicity should be wiped off the face of the planet. Is this a belief that you think is appropriate to try and silence and attack?

Who is downplaying the importance of the US (or the West?). I'm saying that our culture is very important, it's (the West) the best civilisation humans have ever created, and it's worth preserving. I'm stating the truth, why are you shocked? What's controversial about saying Western Civilisation is the best humans have ever done, no one has ever had it better than in 21st century Western Civilisation.

What countries are people trying to get away from? Not ours. What countries are people trying to get TO? OURS.

That's not controversial, it's a fact.

I'm not sure where you're going with this if I'm being honest. Not trying to be insulting, but I'm genuinely uncertain, except that it has maybe something to do with immigration? I don't know. Can we try and agree on something here before I need to leave for a lunch break and a run for a bit. Is lying something that (generally) is a bad thing, and should we attempt to hold up being truthful up as something that we (generally) shoot for? Can we at least agree on this for starters? I'd like to try and find a common ground.

[PrairieDog]

If anyone has the will to actually hear a fully-explained conservative point of view, watch this (there's a long intro, the speech starts at 17:55 and runs a little over an hour):

Jordan Peterson: 12 Principles for 21st Century Conservatism

[doulos]

Well said. Kudos.
Not everything needs to be a controversy.

However, there are some things that absolutely are controversial right? Things that actually are a really big deal? I agree that two sides will disagree on the things that are a big deal, but we can agree at least that there are lines that should not be crossed, and the trick seems to be on deciding where those lines are?

[doulos]

If anyone has the will to actually hear a fully-explained conservative point of view, watch this (there's a long intro, the speech starts at 17:55 and runs a little over an hour):

Was this before or after his appearance on Dr Oz and his claim that he didn't sleep for weeks due to drinking apple cider?

[PrairieDog]

Are there situations where it is important, or perhaps even necessary, to call out specific behaviours for being detrimental to society. Let's say, someone who says all people of a certain ethnicity should be wiped off the face of the planet. Is this a belief that you think is appropriate to try and silence and attack?

Absolutely not - you must be referring to the crisis in Europe? Jews and gays are getting the hell out, because there has been a massive influx of people from different cultures who want to wipe them off the face of the earth? It's bad enough that there's endemic anti-semitism and homophobia in our own culture, I strongly oppose adding outside people to our culture who harbour even more militant and overt anti-semetic and homophobic views, and who feel totally justified in beating or even killing people in the countries they have immigrated to because they have vastly different belief systems compared to the resident population.

I'm with you on that.

I'm not sure where you're going with this if I'm being honest. Not trying to be insulting, but I'm genuinely uncertain, except that it has maybe something to do with immigration? I don't know. Can we try and agree on something here before I need to leave for a lunch break and a run for a bit. Is lying something that (generally) is a bad thing, and should we attempt to hold up being truthful up as something that we (generally) shoot for? Can we at least agree on this for starters? I'd like to try and find a common ground.

I'm saying that there is an overall culture of intolerance to people who have views that are different from the left-driven societal narrative and zeitgeist. You are open for attack - not intellectual debate or discussion (which is very good) - by people who label you as "alt-right' any time you say anything that deviates from the dictates (for example: Mass immigration is a bad idea. Cultural diversity is fine as long as it is within the parameters of the rule of law in the place you live. Accusations of sexual assault must be investigated before determining guilt or innocence. Immigrants should assimilate with the cultures they choose to move to and learn to speak the language - it's just practical.)

I don't know why you are asking me whether I think lying is a good thing - where did that come from (Have you read my sig?)? I absolutely believe that truth is something worth upholding, no matter who tries to silence you. That's what I'm doing

[PrairieDog]

Was this before or after his appearance on Dr Oz and his claim that he didn't sleep for weeks due to drinking apple cider?

Way before, check the date.

(Ad hominem attacks prove you have nothing to say on the actual subject. Is he wrong because he has serious health issues that wreak havoc on his system (it's genetic, his daughter has serious problems as well)? OK, thanks for coming out, we'll note your argument).

[doulos]

Absolutely not - you must be referring to the crisis in Europe? Jews and gays are getting the hell out, because there has been a massive influx of people from different cultures who want to wipe them off the face of the earth? It's bad enough that there's endemic anti-semitism and homophobia in our own culture, I strongly oppose adding outside people to our culture who harbour even more militant and overt anti-semetic and homophobic views, and who feel totally justified in beating or even killing people in the countries they have immigrated to because they have vastly different belief systems compared to the resident population.

I'm with you on that.



I'm saying that there is an overall culture of intolerance to people who have views that are different from the left-driven societal narrative and zeitgeist. You are open for attack - not intellectual debate or discussion (which is very good) - by people who label you as "alt-right' any time you say anything that deviates from the dictates (for example: Mass immigration is a bad idea. Cultural diversity is fine as long as it is within the parameters of the rule of law in the place you live. Accusations of sexual assault must be investigated before determining guilt or innocence. Immigrants should assimilate with the cultures they choose to move to and learn to speak the language - it's just practical.)

I don't know why you are asking me whether I think lying is a good thing - where did that come from (Have you read my sig?)? I absolutely believe that truth is something worth upholding, no matter who tries to silence you. That's what I'm doing

Great, so we actually agree some important stuff. I actually think that people can be too quick to stick labels on people that are not accurate on both sides of the political spectrum (whether that's calling someone alt-right or throwing the term SJW around). It seems (I think) we agree there. Some of the other things you've brought up regarding immigration, sexual assault, cultural diversity etc, are highly nuanced and we would probably have a good discussion on these issues I suspect.

So, we agree that truth is a goal we should shoot for - that's stellar and so we both should see lying from the President of the United States as something to be condemned, should we not?

[doulos]

Way before, check the date.

(Ad hominem attacks prove you have nothing to say on the actual subject. Is he wrong because he has serious health issues that wreak havoc on his system (it's genetic, his daughter has serious problems as well)? OK, thanks for coming out, we'll note your argument).

My apologies, silly joke. I've listened to hours and hours of Peterson, particularly his discussions with Sam Harris, and while I think he has some good stuff to say, he also goes off the deep end with some of his crazy stuff as well. In Peterson I see a guy who started with some genuine concerns about free speech on campuses (tough I do think he overreacted to what would actually happen to him), but has progressed into areas that he is not gifted in and his weaknesses are getting exploited. He's pretty much made it clear that this is his time to make some big time money in his life, and I guess it's hard to blame him too much. But his apple cider thing was hilarious in how stupid it was. Either he broke the world record for not sleeping, or he exaggerated his non-sleeping claim. For a guy who claims to make it a point to speak accurately it was a massive fail. Him associating in any way with Dr Oz is just jumping the shark as far as I am concerned. Making it pretty clear he's in this now for the bucks and raking in whatever he can while he can.

[PrairieDog]

Great, so we actually agree some important stuff. I actually think that people can be too quick to stick labels on people that are not accurate on both sides of the political spectrum (whether that's calling someone alt-right or throwing the term SJW around). It seems (I think) we agree there. Some of the other things you've brought up regarding immigration, sexual assault, cultural diversity etc, are highly nuanced and we would probably have a good discussion on these issues I suspect.

Thanks for understanding where I am coming from. I agree that the issues are far more nuanced, but a lot of people feel that the topics are settled and should not be discussed at all. I wholeheartedly disagree - open political discourse needs to happen. But very little of that seems to be going on (overall) - it just seems like opposing sides becoming more entrenched and tribal, refusing to listen to opposing views.

So, we agree that truth is a goal we should shoot for - that's stellar and so we both should see lying from the President of the United States as something to be condemned, should we not?

Absolutely - but it's nothing new, they all lie. The Johnson regime fabricated the Gulf of Tonkin incident and what did that result in? I'm not going to list a whole bunch of examples, we could find something for every president that ever served. Trump may be the most obnoxious of them, but at a base level they are all lying to us.

[doulos]

I'm not sure of the relevance here, other than perhaps a sad attempt to smudge Jordan Peterson's credibility.

If that's the case, I'm really disappointed that I need to point this out... even credible and smart people will say silly things sometimes or make dumb mistakes.
It means absolutely nothing. Just like when Obama did this below. Again, it's completely meaningless.

"When I meet with world leaders, what's striking -- whether it's in Europe or here in Asia..." -mistakenly referring to Hawaii as Asia while holding a press conference outside Honolulu, Nov. 16, 2011

(

Has Peterson ever admitted that he made a mistake about not sleeping for X number of days due to apple cider?

[doulos]

Thanks for understanding where I am coming from. I agree that the issues are far more nuanced, but a lot of people feel that the topics are settled and should not be discussed at all. I wholeheartedly disagree - open political discourse needs to happen. But very little of that seems to be going on (overall) - it just seems like opposing sides becoming more entrenched and tribal, refusing to listen to opposing views.



Absolutely - but it's nothing new, they all lie. The Johnson regime fabricated the Gulf of Tonkin incident and what did that result in? I'm not going to list a whole bunch of examples, we could find something for every president that ever served. Trump may be the most obnoxious of them, but at a base level they are all lying to us.

I guess I see a difference in degrees here. Trump makes lying a core part of who he is. It's the scope and scale of how he handles the truth that is disturbing. When he is so quick to blatantly lie about things that are so easily verifiable, it makes you wonder why? It's so disheartening to see the person who is heading up the USA just kick the idea of truth around like it simply does not matter at all, and then to have those who support him, or his political beliefs, basically shrug it off like it's not that big of a deal. To me, it is a really big deal. It matters.

[doulos]

I suspect he didn't think it was necessary.
He doesn't feel a need to placate liberal mobs who obsess over every word he says.

Thats a little over the top.

[PrairieDog]

My apologies, silly joke. I've listened to hours and hours of Peterson, particularly his discussions with Sam Harris, and while I think he has some good stuff to say, he also goes off the deep end with some of his crazy stuff as well. In Peterson I see a guy who started with some genuine concerns about free speech on campuses (tough I do think he overreacted to what would actually happen to him), but has progressed into areas that he is not gifted in and his weaknesses are getting exploited. He's pretty much made it clear that this is his time to make some big time money in his life, and I guess it's hard to blame him too much. But his apple cider thing was hilarious in how stupid it was. Either he broke the world record for not sleeping, or he exaggerated his non-sleeping claim. For a guy who claims to make it a point to speak accurately it was a massive fail. Him associating in any way with Dr Oz is just jumping the shark as far as I am concerned. Making it pretty clear he's in this now for the bucks and raking in whatever he can while he can.

OK you haven't addressed a single thing in the video, or how it pertains to the topic at hand. Just the fact that he's very popular and is making a very good living at it (though not as much as say, John Tavares - another person who has made it clear that this is his time to make some big-time money in his life) does not discredit anything he says (yes you said it's hard to blame him, but you're still holding it against him - who wouldn't take the opportunity if you were doing what you loved and felt was right, and were able to make a very good living off it?).

I personally can't stand (for example) Peterson's over-emphasis on religion. I'm an atheist, but I can see how certain Judeo-Christian values/beliefs have shaped our culture. He does give it too much credit though. But his ideas regarding Western Civilisation are bang-on as far as I'm concerned.

Regarding the apple cider thing, I remember his daughter talking about that. He might have been going into hyperbole there, I don't know I will have to actually hear it. I am honestly not very familiar with Dr. Oz, I will have to watch that talk. But it's well documented that he (Peterson) has a long history of serious health issues, and that it was determined his body is very sensitive to diet, and that certain foods/products affect him greatly (and his daughter).

I don't see how that would affect his views on politics (in particular the video I posted).

[PrairieDog]

Thats a little over the top.

Not really (really gets going at about 0:45). You'll see it's actually an understatement.