Tolvanen

[Mr. Guru]

Tolvanen had like 11 points in his last 15 KHL games.

He had 4 in the previous 15 games before that.

And about 20 in his previous 15 before that

rough numbers....but close enough.

[VincentVega]

Tolvanen had like 11 points in his last 15 KHL games.

He had 4 in the previous 15 games before that.

And about 20 in his previous 15 before that

rough numbers....but close enough.

Yes, 15 points in last 30-ish games or so is what I'm talking about. Below average to me.

Not sure it's worth splitting his performance into first 3rd second 3rd and third 3rd to decide he was only below average in the second 3rd.

[VincentVega]

Below average 2nd half? LOL. Tolvanen had a very good end to his KHL season. I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. He had a big slump midway through the season but bounced back really well to end the season on a high note. His slump lasted less than two months, and that included the World Juniors.

You want to talk about numbers? 43 points in 60 KHL games is much better than 91 points in 63 games in the Q where players don't know how to defend. A year ago, Tolvanen had 64 points in 65 games in the USHL while Zadina had 18 points in 20 games in the Czech U20 league which is way below the level of USHL. Zadina also had just 2 points in 25 games in the Czech men's league where Martin Necas had 15 points in 41 games at the same age. If you want to make Zadina look good, using numbers isn't going to do it - his numbers have never been very impressive.

EDIT: Just to add, I have no issue with anyone ranking Zadina ahead of Tolvanen. They're very close and it could go either way. I just hate it when people start spreading lies and stuff that's badly inaccurate.

Don't ever-react now. It's not lies, it's facts. You can slice the facts to suit your narrative, if you want. The comparison of point totals in KHL vs the Q is not really valid as Tolvanen is doing it in his D+1 year whereas Zadina in his D year.

[Jouko-Pouko]

Yes, 15 points in last 30-ish games or so is what I'm talking about. Below average to me.

15 points in 30 games is below average? That would still be 6th on the all-time list among U19 players in the KHL, and his points-per-game average would still be in the same range with Tarasenko and Kaprizov. That's below average? Wow, you have some high standards! Besides, I wasn't talking about his numbers, I was talking about how he played. An 18-year-old playing in the 2nd best league in the world and he goes through a scoring slump? Big deal. He bounced back from it which was the most important thing.

Don't ever-react now. It's not lies, it's facts. You can slice the facts to suit your narrative, if you want. The comparison of point totals in KHL vs the Q is not really valid as Tolvanen is doing it in his D+1 year whereas Zadina in his D year.

Comparing their point totals is 100% valid, they're both born in the same year. Even if you use exact age to balance the age difference, all the numbers still favor Tolvanen in a big way. If you're going to use numbers to prove your point, at least use them correctly. Zadina's point totals are not great, they never have been. His point totals aren't even Top 10 in his draft class. But I don't make decisions based on points, and I think Zadina is better than what his numbers suggest. I'm just saying - IF you're going to use numbers, there's nothing there to suggest Zadina is better than Tolvanen. Let's use a 3rd party software to see what I mean. NHL Rank King's PNHLe numbers (which use exact age): Eeli Tolvanen 65, Filip Zadina 50. That's a huge difference between them.

[rangerdanger]

15 points in 30 games is below average? That would still be 6th on the all-time list among U19 players in the KHL, and his points-per-game average would still be in the same range with Tarasenko and Kaprizov. That's below average? Wow, you have some high standards! Besides, I wasn't talking about his numbers, I was talking about how he played. An 18-year-old playing in the 2nd best league in the world and he goes through a scoring slump? Big deal. He bounced back from it which was the most important thing.



Comparing their point totals is 100% valid, they're both born in the same year. Even if you use exact age to balance the age difference, all the numbers still favor Tolvanen in a big way. If you're going to use numbers to prove your point, at least use them correctly. Zadina's point totals are not great, they never have been. His point totals aren't even Top 10 in his draft class. But I don't make decisions based on points, and I think Zadina is better than what his numbers suggest. I'm just saying - IF you're going to use numbers, there's nothing there to suggest Zadina is better than Tolvanen. Let's use a 3rd party software to see what I mean. NHL Rank King's PNHLe numbers (which use exact age): Eeli Tolvanen 65, Filip Zadina 50. That's a huge difference between them.

The argument has gotten more subjective with every post, despite seeking to do the opposite. Just reading it as a third party, it’s clear these numbers are being thrown out there, out of context, in an attempt to give credence to a subjective opinion.

Maybe Zadina is better, maybe Tolvanen is better, it’s still TBD. What is clear though is that a Tolvanen wins any display of statistics hands down. What Tolvanen did in the KHL as a rookie is likely more impressive than what Elias Pettersson has done in the SHL. As far as I’m concerned at least.

It’s funny, a lot of people are starting to say Tolvanen is all hype or not nearly as good as the hype suggests. Yet often when other players like Svechnikov or Zadina are discussed, it’s as if they’re in a hype-less vacuum, where every claim about them is simply destiny instead of the propagandized conjecture that clearly surrounds Tolvanen.

[Jouko-Pouko]

The argument has gotten more subjective with every post, despite seeking to do the opposite. Just reading it as a third party, it?s clear these numbers are being thrown out there, out of context, in an attempt to give credence to a subjective opinion.

Maybe Zadina is better, maybe Tolvanen is better, it?s still TBD. What is clear though is that a Tolvanen wins any display of statistics hands down. What Tolvanen did in the KHL as a rookie is likely more impressive than what Elias Pettersson has done in the SHL. As far as I?m concerned at least.

It?s funny, a lot of people are starting to say Tolvanen is all hype or not nearly as good as the hype suggests. Yet often when other players like Svechnikov or Zadina are discussed, it?s as if they?re in a hype-less vacuum, where every claim about them is simply destiny instead of the propagandized conjecture that clearly surrounds Tolvanen.

You're absolutely right that either one could end up being better. There really is no right or wrong answer with elite prospects like them - it's just personal preference. I just wanted to correct the false allegation that Zadina's numbers are somehow better than Tolvanen's. But as said earlier, stats and numbers are a helpful tool but not decisive by any means.

I like Zadina a lot, and I have nothing bad to say about him. A great prospect, and I've heard nothing but good things about his character as well. His numbers are not at elite level but I think he's a better player than his numbers suggest. Casey Mittelstadt is a similar case - great player with numbers that don't suggest he's elite. There's no reason to be badmouthing Zadina just because I like Tolvanen a tad more.

[Zorro]

It comes down to personal preference.. We all know who you guys like better.. In 5 years we can come back to this thread and point fingers.. HaHa..

[Mr. Guru]

Yes, 15 points in last 30-ish games or so is what I'm talking about. Below average to me.

Not sure it's worth splitting his performance into first 3rd second 3rd and third 3rd to decide he was only below average in the second 3rd.

Yup. Just wanted to share the numbers.

I wont pretend to have watched both players play regularly like some folks here. But I'll take Zadina and his pedigree over Tolvanen.

[finnys_fanatsy]

just moved an early 2nd rounder for Eeli...hes certainly worth that i hope

[Mr. Guru]

just moved an early 2nd rounder for Eeli...hes certainly worth that i hope

Definitely worth it.

[VincentVega]

You're absolutely right that either one could end up being better. There really is no right or wrong answer with elite prospects like them - it's just personal preference. I just wanted to correct the false allegation that Zadina's numbers are somehow better than Tolvanen's. But as said earlier, stats and numbers are a helpful tool but not decisive by any means.

I like Zadina a lot, and I have nothing bad to say about him. A great prospect, and I've heard nothing but good things about his character as well. His numbers are not at elite level but I think he's a better player than his numbers suggest. Casey Mittelstadt is a similar case - great player with numbers that don't suggest he's elite. There's no reason to be badmouthing Zadina just because I like Tolvanen a tad more.

I don't think I claimed that or at least I didn't meant to claim it. I pointed out that the sample size of Tolvanen's great play is not the whole KHL season but rather mostly the first two months. Yes, he got out of his mid season slump towards the end but never was able to reproduce his early season success.

And yes, there is more than numbers when evaluating prospects.

[rangerdanger]

Curious what people think the best case scenario player comparison would be for Tolvanen. Like if he reached his top potential, what kind of player are we looking at? If forced to choose. I know player comparisons are tough and not always that accurate. But none the less, can be helpful in prospecting players future.

I have thought the best case scenario for Tolvanen would be similar to Tarasenko. All though, I'm not sure if that comparison comes from their actual play, or just because they both come from the KHL after succeeding there.

Does Tolvanen have any 2 way game? Could he end up more like Jeff Skinner? That would be unfortunate IMO. At least for fantasy purposes. I'm hoping, Skinner is on the lower end of what Tolvanen could become if he succeeds but doesn't flourish.

I've read through this thread. Didn't really see much about the non offensive aspects of Tolvanen's game. If he's physical at all, perhaps leading to HIT and PIM? Also, didn't see many direct player comparisons outside of loose comparisons with other youngsters like Boeser or Kyle Connor perhaps.

[Jouko-Pouko]

Curious what people think the best case scenario player comparison would be for Tolvanen. Like if he reached his top potential, what kind of player are we looking at? If forced to choose. I know player comparisons are tough and not always that accurate. But none the less, can be helpful in prospecting players future.

I have thought the best case scenario for Tolvanen would be similar to Tarasenko. All though, I'm not sure if that comparison comes from their actual play, or just because they both come from the KHL after succeeding there.

Does Tolvanen have any 2 way game? Could he end up more like Jeff Skinner? That would be unfortunate IMO. At least for fantasy purposes. I'm hoping, Skinner is on the lower end of what Tolvanen could become if he succeeds but doesn't flourish.

I've read through this thread. Didn't really see much about the non offensive aspects of Tolvanen's game. If he's physical at all, perhaps leading to HIT and PIM? Also, didn't see many direct player comparisons outside of loose comparisons with other youngsters like Boeser or Kyle Connor perhaps.

Tolvanen is decent defensively. Not a liability but not great either. He hits but I wouldn't expect big totals over a full season - maybe like 50 hits over 82 games or something like that.

[Username]

Filip Forsberg with a better shot.

[Zorro]

Filip Forsberg with a better shot.

2 Forsberg's on Nashville?? All the other NHL teams are in trouble..