Crypto Currency

[doulos]

Thoughts on these quotes from a Nobel Prize winning economist:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nobel...fkWeJxfRtIGsv0

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Time will tell if this ages as well as his view that "by 2005, it would become clear that the Internet's effect on the economy is no greater than the fax machine's."

[doulos]

I have a small amount as a hedge but I echo some of his sentiment. The majority including bitcoin itself seems to have no real life usefulness. I mean I guess it's decentralized and could be used as consideration but that's only as good as the market that values it.

Time will tell but, probably useless.

I hold only about $1.00 of Bitcoin now as a token of remembrance for a day gone by. I don't think too highly of it's long term prospects.

That being said Bitcoin is being used daily in places like Argentina to deal with the hyperinflation in their system. It's not a perfect solution, but it's actually being used in real world situations by people. Other cryptocurrencies could also be used, but Bitcoin is the most well known, so it makes sense that it gets used. Whether it will remain the crypto of choice among those who live in countries like that is a matter of debate.

[doulos]

Thank you for your explanation. I understand that but it also makes me worry that if that adaptation isn't there than the whole principle falls apart. It's not unlike the gold standard. It was deemed something of a controlled supply that could be used as consideration for goods and servicers. If people decide that they do not want to use Bitcoin as consideration anymore than it goes back to being worthless. However, I think it's a little late for that.

What are your thought on Cardano? I have some as well based on a recommendation from a friend who is big into the space.

Cardano as a speculative play could have some value. It has a cult-like following and is led by a cult-like individual in Hoskinen.

As a product it is mocked and laughed at by almost any serious thinking person in crypto. As a speculative asset to gamble on, well that's up to you.

[BreadManPanarin]

Thank you for your explanation. I understand that but it also makes me worry that if that adaptation isn't there than the whole principle falls apart. It's not unlike the gold standard. It was deemed something of a controlled supply that could be used as consideration for goods and servicers. If people decide that they do not want to use Bitcoin as consideration anymore than it goes back to being worthless. However, I think it's a little late for that.

What are your thought on Cardano? I have some as well based on a recommendation from a friend who is big into the space.

The primary appeal of bitcoin relative to other cryotocurrencies is that it takes monetary policy completely out of the hands of humans, who cannot be trusted to manage monetary policy because they inevitably manipulate it for their own benefit.

Cardano, Ethereum, and practically every other crypto in existence leaves monetary policy in the hands of humans, in particular the development teams who are elite stakeholders in those protocols. Thus, I donÂ’t see how those assets fix the issue that bitcoin fixes.

At the end of the day bitcoin is essentially just a digital version of gold with improvements including a terminal supply cap and the ability to send anywhere in the world without physical transportation or censorship when crossing borders. It doesnÂ’t need to do all of the fancy things that other cryptos do in their attempts to be relevant. Its use case is extremely simple and timelessly valid. It is just scarce digital money that humans can’t **** with.

[doulos]

The primary appeal of bitcoin relative to other cryotocurrencies is that it takes monetary policy completely out of the hands of humans, who cannot be trusted to manage monetary policy because they inevitably manipulate it for their own benefit.

Cardano, Ethereum, and practically every other crypto in existence leaves monetary policy in the hands of humans, in particular the development teams who are elite stakeholders in those protocols. Thus, I donÂ’t see how those assets fix the issue that bitcoin fixes.

At the end of the day bitcoin is essentially just a digital version of gold with improvements including a terminal supply cap and the ability to send anywhere in the world without physical transportation or censorship when crossing borders. It doesnÂ’t need to do all of the fancy things that other cryptos do in their attempts to be relevant. Its use case is extremely simple and timelessly valid. It is just scarce digital money that humans can’t **** with.

No one outside of Bitcoin true-believers think this is true any more though, but ok.

[Canucks_fan18]

Cardano as a speculative play could have some value. It has a cult-like following and is led by a cult-like individual in Hoskinen.

As a product it is mocked and laughed at by almost any serious thinking person in crypto. As a speculative asset to gamble on, well that's up to you.

Really mocked, why is that? Does it have no utility?

[doulos]

Really mocked, why is that? Does it have no utility?

Everything has utility if you want to give it one. A rock can become a pet or a paperweight.

[BreadManPanarin]

No one outside of Bitcoin true-believers think this is true any more though, but ok.

Believe what is true? That nobody can unilaterally change the supply cap or issuance schedule?

I’d love to hear a solid case as to why that is perceived as likely to be untrue.

[doulos]

Believe what is true? That nobody can unilaterally change the supply cap or issuance schedule?

I’d love to hear a solid case as to why that is perceived as likely to be untrue.

I am sure there are any number of hardcore bitcoin believer communities who will tell you exactly what you want to hear about bitcoin. You don't need me for that.

[BreadManPanarin]

I am sure there are any number of hardcore bitcoin believer communities who will tell you exactly what you want to hear about bitcoin. You don't need me for that.

I’m not asking to be told what I want to hear.

I’m asking you to support your prior statement with a coherent argument.

[doulos]

The idea that Bitcoin monetary policy is outside of the hands of humans is absurd. Unless you think all of those mining pools will run along without human beings maintaining them.

[BreadManPanarin]

The idea that Bitcoin monetary policy is outside of the hands of humans is absurd. Unless you think all of those mining pools will run along without human beings maintaining them.

If you are suggesting that miners have literally anything to do with bitcoin’s monetary policy then you don’t have a basic understanding of how bitcoin works.

Miners compete to find a winning hash that allows them the right to publish the newest block of transactions. They have no ability to change the monetary policy or change the consensus rules. The nodes enforce the consensus rules and if the miners dont obey the rules then their blocks are rejected by the nodes and their effort and money spent hashing is wasted. And if any pool operator was stupid enough to try this then every individual miner would leave that pool and go to another pool where they could actually make money instead of wasting it.

If anyone is interested in this topic I recommend reading the books Inventing Bitcoin and The Blocksize War. Everyone has an opinion on Bitcoin, but very few actually understand it.

[doulos]

If you are suggesting that miners have literally anything to do with bitcoinÂ’s monetary policy then you donÂ’t have a basic understanding of how bitcoin works.

Miners compete to find a winning hash that allows them the right to publish the newest block of transactions. They have no ability to change the monetary policy or change the consensus rules. The nodes enforce the consensus rules and if the miners dont obey the rules then their blocks are rejected by the nodes and their effort and money spent hashing is wasted. And if any pool operator was stupid enough to try this then every individual miner would leave that pool and go to another pool where they could actually make money instead of wasting it.

If anyone is interested in this topic I recommend reading the books Inventing Bitcoin and The Blocksize War. Everyone has an opinion on Bitcoin, but very few actually understand it.

I am aware of all of this. The fact is mining cannot exist without humans and Bitcoin cannot exist without miners. There is a great deal more human involvement and centralization with bitcoin than the community wants to acknowledge. One of a few reasons why I have little faith it will ever reach the lofty goals the community has for it.

Perhaps one day they will abandon proof of work, finally confront their network security issues, realize Lightning Network with state channels cannot scale to ever become globally useful and realize that bitcoin as a pet rock is doomed to fail. If they do these things (and more) then perhaps there is hope. Given how increasingly insular the bitcoin community becomes every day, I dont have a lot of hope this is going to happen in time.

Ethereum has many flaws still (like ... LOTS) but given that the Bitcoin community has no desire to adapt, its the only chain I see having much of a hope of accomplishing the tough things required to stay relevant but also maintain the values that Bitcoin started with.

I am fully aware the Bitcoin community fundamentally disagrees. There are still a few willing to acknowledge the tough things ahead and have an interest in digging into those challenges but there are less and less every day who are not just trying to ignore the problems and call everything else a shitcoin. I started in the Bitcoin community but the complete inflexibility and willingness to adapt, which are seen as perks to bitcoiners, are viewed as flaws to me.

It is what it is.

[BreadManPanarin]

I am aware of all of this. The fact is mining cannot exist without humans and Bitcoin cannot exist without miners. There is a great deal more human involvement and centralization with bitcoin than the community wants to acknowledge. One of a few reasons why I have little faith it will ever reach the lofty goals the community has for it.

Perhaps one day they will abandon proof of work, finally confront their network security issues, realize Lightning Network with state channels cannot scale to ever become globally useful and realize that bitcoin as a pet rock is doomed to fail. If they do these things (and more) then perhaps there is hope. Given how increasingly insular the bitcoin community becomes every day, I dont have a lot of hope this is going to happen in time.

Ethereum has many flaws still (like ... LOTS) but given that the Bitcoin community has no desire to adapt, its the only chain I see having much of a hope of accomplishing the tough things required to stay relevant but also maintain the values that Bitcoin started with.

I am fully aware the Bitcoin community fundamentally disagrees. There are still a few willing to acknowledge the tough things ahead and have an interest in digging into those challenges but there are less and less every day who are not just trying to ignore the problems and call everything else a shitcoin. I started in the Bitcoin community but the complete inflexibility and willingness to adapt, which are seen as perks to bitcoiners, are viewed as flaws to me.

It is what it is.

That’s a whole lot of words without actually addressing the issue of bitcoin’s monetary policy that we were discussing.

I remain interested in hearing you explain why you think bitcoin’s monetary policy can feasibly be corrupted and changed by an individual or centralized group. But if you prefer not to answer the question I’m willing to drop it.

[doulos]

That’s a whole lot of words without actually addressing the issue of bitcoin’s monetary policy that we were discussing.

I remain interested in hearing you explain why you think bitcoin’s monetary policy can feasibly be corrupted and changed by an individual or centralized group. But if you prefer not to answer the question I’m willing to drop it.

I already explained. You don't get it. We best both move on.