Bishop almost a Flame

[rataylor22]

aI am saying look who won the cup this year. You don't need a superstar goalie (which Bishop is not) back there to win the Cup. A cup contender should be great regardless of who is in their net. If not, they aren't really a great team.

You didn't SAY it, you IMPLIED it right here.

Conversely, you could have an average team, with an elite goaltender, and win a cup. It would be a different method of winning.

[The Iron Sheik]

If you re-reading what I wrote, you'll see that I'm not disputing your statement about team composition. The Habs relied solely on their superstar goalie to win with little quality talent in the rest of the roster. Habs were a bad team made plain by Price's injury.

My contention this whole time is that you're calling goalies irrelevant/overrated. I disagree with you wholeheartedly there. Teams need a strong performance from their goalie to win a two-month long playoff run. As in, you cannot succeed with average goaltending. A bad goalie performance psychologically submarines the whole team. Steve Mason out to be able to confirm this to you.

Sure you can and that is my point. You also just said two different things. Average and bad are two different things. Penguins just won the cup with an average goalie performance. Hawks did it as well. Teams always do this. You don't need them to be outstanding. Just solid. Steve Mason would have won the Cup last year.

[rataylor22]

If you re-reading what I wrote, you'll see that I'm not disputing your statement about team composition. The Habs relied solely on their superstar goalie to win with little quality talent in the rest of the roster. Habs were a bad team made plain by Price's injury.

My contention this whole time is that you're calling goalies irrelevant/overrated. I disagree with you wholeheartedly there. Teams need a strong performance from their goalie to win a two-month long playoff run. As in, you cannot succeed with average goaltending. A bad goalie performance psychologically submarines the whole team. Steve Mason out to be able to confirm this to you.

Kari Lehtonen/Antii Niemi too. The Stars were a pretty great team.

[The Iron Sheik]

You didn't SAY it, you IMPLIED it right here.

Conversely, you could have an average team, with an elite goaltender, and win a cup. It would be a different method of winning.

I don't think there is one way to win the cup, but I think that winning with just your goalie is impossible today.

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Kari Lehtonen/Antii Niemi too. The Stars were a pretty great team.

The Stars were classic regular season darlings. They had poor, poor D. Anyone who though they were great doesn't know how to analyze teams.

[Sherpa]

Teams need a strong performance from their goalie to win a two-month long playoff run.

Sure you can and that is my point. You also just said two different things. Average and bad are two different things. Penguins just won the cup with an average goalie performance. Hawks did it as well. Teams always do this. You don't need them to be outstanding. Just solid. Steve Mason would have won the Cup last year.

You're equating quality play from a singularly significant position during the crucible that is the SC Playoffs to be average?

Ok then...

We'll just agree to disagree here.

[Moses]

It would be dumb to let him walk and get nothing. They should trade him right now while his value is at its highest. As we just saw, you can win the Cup with basically anyone in net these days.

I get the logic in theory... But what could they reasonable expect to get for Bishop right now? A third round pick? A low 2nd? A B level prospect?

If you are Tampa wouldn't you rather have a Vezina caliber goalie, even if it is for one year, while your cup window is open rather than a shot in the dark that may, or may not, become a useful asset 3+ years in the future?

If you trade Bishop what happens if Vasilevskiy gets hurt this season. Is Gudlevskis the answer or do you then have to trade an asset for immediate goalie help.

[rataylor22]

I get the logic in theory... But what could they reasonable expect to get for Bishop right now? A third round pick? A low 2nd? A B level prospect?

If you are Tampa wouldn't you rather have a Vezina caliber goalie, even if it is for one year, while your cup window is open rather than a shot in the dark that may, or may not, become a useful asset 3+ years in the future?

If you trade Bishop what happens if Vasilevskiy gets hurt this season. Is Gudlevskis the answer or do you then have to trade an asset for immediate goalie help.

Nichuskin?

[Jouko-Pouko]

I actually agree with The Iron Sheik that great teams can win without elite goalies. But I also agree with Moses that it's not likely Tampa is going to get a great asset if they move Bishop with only 1 year left on his contract and pretty much no one looking to upgrade their goaltending right now. So Tampa could win with either Bishop or Vasilevskiy but if they can't get good price on Bishop, then it might be best to have that insurance policy instead just in case Vasilevskiy gets injured or just cannot handle the starter's workload.

If Tampa had more cap space, they could possibly trade Vasilevskiy and re-sign Bishop but I'm not sure if they can dump their bad contracts to do that.

[rataylor22]

I actually agree with The Iron Sheik that great teams can win without elite goalies. But I also agree with Moses that it's not likely Tampa is going to get a great asset if they move Bishop with only 1 year left on his contract and pretty much no one looking to upgrade their goaltending right now. So Tampa could win with either Bishop or Vasilevskiy but if they can't get good price on Bishop, then it might be best to have that insurance policy instead just in case Vasilevskiy gets injured or just cannot handle the starter's workload.

If Tampa had more cap space, they could possibly trade Vasilevskiy and re-sign Bishop but I'm not sure if they can dump their bad contracts to do that.

Sure, but he's suggesting that's the only way to win, which is false.

[Moses]

Nichuskin?

???

Bishop for Nichuskin/Niemi kind of thing?

[Jouko-Pouko]

???

Bishop for Nichuskin/Niemi kind of thing?

The problem is that Tampa cannot take Niemi or Lehtonen in return, so the Stars would need to send another high-end prospect or a young roster player to someone to take Niemi or Lehtonen off their hands. Not sure they'd want to do that.

[rataylor22]

???

Bishop for Nichuskin/Niemi kind of thing?

Who says no?

The problem is that Tampa cannot take Niemi or Lehtonen in return, so the Stars would need to send another high-end prospect or a young roster player to someone to take Niemi or Lehtonen off their hands. Not sure they'd want to do that.

They actually have about 6.5 mil in cap space. Niemi for Bishop gets them about 1.5 mil in cap space. That gives them 8 mil.

They definitely can take that in return. Not to mention they can eat salary.

[Chico Resch]

Hey. I can chime in here.

In my job, I ran into a TBL scout. He and I started talking about Hockey, and the situation they have, yadda yadda yadda.

He told me that they had a deal in place to send Bishop to Calgary, and everything was just taken care of. At the last possible second, Calgary did a 180, and went with Elliott instead.

Their plan (as of now) is to just ride him, hope for another team to have an injury in the first 20 games and trade him for whatever they can.

[Jouko-Pouko]

They actually have about 6.5 mil in cap space. Niemi for Bishop gets them about 1.5 mil in cap space. That gives them 8 mil.

They definitely can take that in return. Not to mention they can eat salary.

So you're saying they wouldn't re-sign Kucherov at all, then? Kucherov takes about $7M of that cap space. And next year, you have the Hedman raise kicking in and Johnson/Palat/Drouin needing new contracts, so they definitely cannot afford Niemi then. That 2nd year is the real killer for Tampa; they could probably do it if it was for just this year but they would be insane to take a player with term on his contract with those young players needing raises. Even if Dallas ate 50% of the salary, it would still be too much for them.

[rataylor22]

So you're saying they wouldn't re-sign Kucherov at all, then? Kucherov takes about $7M of that cap space. And next year, you have the Hedman raise kicking in and Johnson/Palat/Drouin needing new contracts, so they definitely cannot afford Niemi then. That 2nd year is the real killer for Tampa; they could probably do it if it was for just this year but they would be insane to take a player with term on his contract with those young players needing raises. Even if Dallas ate 50% of the salary, it would still be too much for them.

Well I have them at $8 mil in cap space right now, so that's enough to resign Kucherov, if I'm just doing math.......

If Tampa resigns Kucherov, they're making the decision that they aren't keeping all of Palat, Johnson, and Drouin. That's just a reality of the cap world. Bringing in Nichuskin could replace one of those 3. $3 million of Niemi (assuming they eat salary) isn't going to be what kills them. What is killing them is 3 more years of Callahan at 5.8, one more year of Filppula at 5, one more year of Garrison at 4.6. What's Johnson? A 6 million dollar player? I'd say so? Palat? $5 million? Probably. Drouin? He'll get at least 3.5. That's $14.5 million. They already have $60 committed for 2017-2018, if you put Kucherov at 7. They aren't keeping everyone.