Ghost will finish top 5 in points this year, and top 2 next year.

[Big Ev]

He's not a fluke, I've seen him live and he is good, but I don't think he will get enough minutes to finish in the Top 3 or 5 of D scoring next season.

Also I don't really look at the streak as being anything noteworthy, similar to Hammond's streak last season. It's fun but not really important when evaluating him going forward.

[fungchen3]

He's not a fluke, I've seen him live and he is good, but I don't think he will get enough minutes to finish in the Top 3 or 5 of D scoring next season.

Fair enough. Then where do you see him finishing? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

50-52 points should get a defenseman Top 10 billing most seasons. 55 points could get you in the Top 5.

If Ghost is scoring at a 70 point pace right now, do you see him dipping under a 55 point pace moving forward? I'm not talking about JUST next year, I'm talking about the next 5 years or so.

Because, if anything, I see Ghost's situation improving. He will grow into a better all-around defenseman (just like Karlsson, Shattenkirk and Barrie have). He will eventually log more minutes. Soon he will have a better even strength D partner (his current partner is Andy freaking MacDonald!!)

I'm curious to see where you place him, if it's outside of the Top 3-5.

[Big Ev]

if we're talking points I'd take Karlsson, Burns, Subban, OEL, Klingberg, Letang over him. That's not to say he can't outpoint some of them but I'd have a hard time taking the risk on Ghost.

[rtstr]

if we're talking points I'd take Karlsson, Burns, Subban, OEL, Klingberg, Letang over him. That's not to say he can't outpoint some of them but I'd have a hard time taking the risk on Ghost.

I think this is a fair assessment.

The main issue this thread is having is Fungchen and Big Ev are evaluating the player using completely different criteria. Big Ev is using a more rational, "where is the evidence to support this? what does history and the numbers say?" approach, whereas Fungchen is "I love the kid, he's on my team, I just got a gut feeling about him, he's a star!"

Both are completely relevant ways to evaluate a player, but it's nearly impossible for both routes to lead to the same destination.

(I use Big Ev and fung as examples. This thread has multiple Evs and multiple Fungs, but the trend of the debate doesn't change).

[Seeds of Grapes]

No chance.

Ghost's defensive game is not good.

Neither is Karlsson's.

[fungchen3]

if we're talking points I'd take Karlsson, Burns, Subban, OEL, Klingberg, Letang over him. That's not to say he can't outpoint some of them but I'd have a hard time taking the risk on Ghost.

That's a fair list. In a keeper I would want Ghost over Burns and Letang (always injured). But, other than that, I can't argue with your list.

[Big Ev]

Neither is Karlsson's.

Yes it is

[fungchen3]

Yes it is

Yes it is... and it improved a lot. Karlsson is good defensively but he wasn't 41 games into his NHL career. And, just like Karlsson, Ghost will improve. He has the same hallmarks as Karlsson and he'll learn to use them to his advantage in his own zone - speed, high IQ, anticipation and active stick. He's also great at leading the transition.

Christ, Nicklas Lidstrom wasn't great defensively day one. I know. I watched him as a rookie. Defensemen, especially intelligent ones, improve with experience.

If Ghost is still making the same mistakes year 3, I'd be concerned. Ekman-Larsson still makes mistakes... and he's a gem. It happens.

[Pengwin7]

...
3. This means, for most defensemen to score 50+ pts per year, they've got to notch 25 ESP per year.
4. I can't see Ghost doing this because his even-strength all-around game is NOT good enough to log top minutes.
...
20 ESP + 25 PPP = 45pts.
I peg him at 43pts... because there will be a few games missed here & there.
...
Ghost is gonna be a good player.
But he's gonna be a 3rd-pairing defensemen who still gets top PP time.
20 ESP + 25 PPP.
And if he loses the PP-QB spot, for any reason, he can easily slip below 40pts.
...

I thought this thread could use an update.
Ghost has now gone FOURTEEN straight games without an even-strength point.
His TOI/gp has consistently dropped below 20min/gp in regulation time.
http://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamel...e-gostisbehere

And his SH% is closer to where most point-bombing shooters sit... which is 5% (well off from last year's 11%).

He has 19pts on 7 ESP + 12 PPP to this point in the year.
The Flyers are just about at mid-season.
This means he's pacing for 14 ESP + 25 PPP ~ 39pts.

Provorov is the future in PHI.
Anybody that sold high on Ghost was wise to do so.

(btw - where is Shawnee... 'cause 19pts is good for 26th in NHL D-scoring, tied with Jeff Petry & Damon Severson... and behind Nick Holden.)
http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/p...ion/defensemen

[Wonko]

I moved Ghost (with Backes) a few months ago for Getzlaf, Vatanen, and Marchand. Not a complete home run, but it gave me some good depth for another run at the title this year. After watching a half dozen Philly games Ghost just didn't look like the kind of player who was simply slumping. Imagine if he didn't get the lions share of PP time on the monster PP? Yikes. With Provorov coming down the pike, and looking smooth and solid in his rookie year, I finally decided to bail on Gostisbehere. No regrets yet

[BranDOOM]

I was offered Ghost for my Werenski earlier this year..swiftly turned it down and happy I did!
This post was one of the reasons I did so, goes to show a little research goes a long way.

[LuigiC173]

except Ivan Provorov will always be there to breathe down his neck; Provorov is the more complete player and will be the franchise defender, not saying he is better at offense which is clearly where Shayne excels but Ivan could ruin how he is used as far as minutes.

[Godin]

I'll take Ghost over the above mentioned.

[BreadManPanarin]

I thought this thread could use an update.
Provorov is the future in PHI.
Anybody that sold high on Ghost was wise to do so.

I was very high on Ghost last year and early this year. However, I am much more down on him now. Recently traded him and Fleury away for Cam Atkinson in my dynasty league, and I am pretty pleased with that swap. Provorov is very good, and I think he is a significant cause for concern for Ghost owners going forward.

[Jouko-Pouko]

Ghost is a good example why I don't like purely offensive D-men like him. It's very rare they improve their defensive game to become the next Karlsson, more likely they become more of PP specialists with limited ES minutes. I think that's important to remember when drafting small offensive wizards "because they have 60 point upside" - they may have that but risk should also be considered as well. Of course the risk is smaller in shallow leagues and leagues with shallow prospect teams, so know your league!