Penalty Minutes (PIM) Should it be a Positive or a Negative Stat in Fantasy Hockey?

[metaldude26]

I've often lamented that PIM should be a negative stat in fantasy hockey, as in the team with the fewest PIM in a H2H matchup should win that category. It just makes sense. Penalties are clearly a negative in hockey so why reward them in fantasy hockey? What say you?

Discuss in this thread but I've also got a poll up on Twitter that I'd love feedback on, which can be viewed here: https://twitter.com/SteveLaidlaw/sta...91410267779073

[Doug Glatt]

What I would like to see is a way to differentiate between penalties. Specifically, if there was a way to isolate fighting majors that would be terrific. Fighting majors as a category. Perhaps it doesnt matter since NHL fighting is going down the same road as the dinosaurs.

[DusterDave]

PIM is the worst stat in fantasy hockey and shouldn't be a category. For some reason it is a positive category though when it really should be a negative category. Not a fan of +/- in fantasy either.

[Axeman33]

I've always stated that I was never a fan of PIMs being a positive stat when it affects teams negatively on the ice. It seems like an total opposite and backwards stat for those who are trying to make their leagues run as close to the real thing as possible.

I get the arguement that it gets more guys on your rosters and makes guys that normally wouldn't have value, valuable, but I still dislike the "positive" affect towards fantasy.

[Referee3083]

For many years in our league we actually set PIM scoring as negative so that you'd lose points for guys who spent time in the box. Yes there are very specific cases where taking a penalty is in the best interest of the team (hooking / tripping a guy on a breakaway, and there's a case to be made for separating out fighting). But on the whole, PIMs hurt your team in real life so I can't accept them helping your fantasy team.

[Daydream Nation]

GWG and SHP are the worst stats in fantasy hockey IMO.

I like PIMs since it makes certain players much more valuable. I agree that PIMs are generally a negative for the team but I like including it for fantasy purposes.

[Pengwin7]

I'm done with PIM as a category.

For me taking a minor penalty is equivalent to a -1.
The other team gets a PP opportunity with a 20% shot at scoring.
So... that player taking the minor is essentially taking the -0.2 from five players that would normally all get a minus (but don't because there is no minus for SH goals against).

My issue with making it a negative category is that occasionally... players will get involved in a skirmish or need to engage in a fight as part of on-ice duty of protecting/joining teammates.
Those PIM would be bad luck and could be heavy (5min fighting or 10min misconducts).

In general, I think most leagues should just dump PIM altogether as a category.

What I think we'd see... is that people that like PIM would just join those sort of goon-leagues where the categories are like PIMS, Majors, HITS.
I'd probably join one eventually in the future.


(btw - to avoid sitting on the fence, if I must choose ONE side... NEGATIVE STAT)

[jimc21]

An opposing view...

PIM's are like the jack of diamonds in Hearts. It upsets the way you would traditionally build your team and (at least in a H2H league) it makes you think about a category you'll lose every week if you load your team with one-way players. We added hits to our league and dropped GWG's for that reason. Plus, every team in the NHL wants and needs some balance with hitters, shot blockers and "energy guys" who take the body and rack up a few PIM's. Why should fantasy hockey be any different? I think having PIM's as a valuable category is imperative.

[Dingy]

I agree that GWG and SHP are worse then PIM, but I also consider PIMs to be a stat that could easily be removed. I do really like jimc21's point that it makes you think about building your team a different way and adds more intrigue to guys who would normally not be picked. However, I think that this can be replicated by adding HITS, like he said, and blocks.

[ericdaoust]

I think PIM will disappear before it becomes a negative stat.

[glorybe23]

Meh, can go either way. I prefer cheering for things that happen in a game rather than kicking the sofa when a negative stat pops up with one of my players, so I prefer it being a positive stat.

Either way it should be represented as such a minimal amount(good or bad) that it doesnt swing your matchup weekly, but is there because it is part of the game.

[JagrBomb]

i'd rather just get rid of the PIM category than have it a negative stat

[Instant Karma]

I don't have a real problem with PIM if you want to use it (which I don't).

The problem I do have with PIM is that it's a default category, which it probably shouldn't be. This creates an annoying problem because most player rankings take PIM into account (unless the rankings are specifically points-only) because Yahoo uses it as a default category.

[GoNucks]

An opposing view...

PIM's are like the jack of diamonds in Hearts. It upsets the way you would traditionally build your team and (at least in a H2H league) it makes you think about a category you'll lose every week if you load your team with one-way players. We added hits to our league and dropped GWG's for that reason. Plus, every team in the NHL wants and needs some balance with hitters, shot blockers and "energy guys" who take the body and rack up a few PIM's. Why should fantasy hockey be any different? I think having PIM's as a valuable category is imperative.

Agree with that analogy, well said.

[J0e Th0rnton]

In some ways, I agree with you, but the caveat is defensemen.

Defensemen in scoring are already the red headed stepchild in point heavy formats except for a select few like Karlsson/Burns because top defensemen just do not score as much. However, on average, they play 24 minutes a night and accrue ever so slightly more PIM's than the average forward.

In a lot of leagues I play in where you have 3-4 Defense spots, it is normal to see many teams only carrying 2/3 defensemen and using their spots to stream forwards because categories favor them.

Some argue that PPP favors Dmen, but look at the top 25 last year. Only 19 Dmen in top 75 PPP were present.
Look at SOG in the same context. Only 11 Dmen in the top 75
If your league counts FOW as a category, then Dmen take even more of a backseat.
In fact, even hits is predominantly forechecking forwards. The defensemen who don't really score make a presence here. But not the top dogs for the most part.

The only stat Dmen truly rule is Blocked shots.

So while it artificially inflates the values of the Hartnell's, Simmonds and Lucic's of the world, it also gives just an itsy bit more value to a Drew Doughty/Ryan Suter Norris type over a Plekanec/Hossa type. And in real life, we all know Doughty/Suter = world class player while Plekanec/Hossa merely "Star" who will never win a trophy.

For whatever reason, I can never convince people to drop the PIM's category and add BKS.

But turning PIM's into a negative category turns guys like Shea Weber into Waiver wire material compared to a Carlson