Dobber leagues - matched settings from next year?

[horrorfan]

Well said. This is pretty much my feeling as well.

Horrorfan - You seem really keen, so if you want a shot at the Experts League, you are welcome to take over my team for the rest of the year. Life has been hectic, and I just logged in for the first time since December - and it looks like my team is somehow 7th out of the 11 teams. I'm guessing some other guys have lost interest or else my team would be 11th by now. With some time invested, there's a chance you could make it a top five team. Maybe shoot MD a message and he can take care of the admin piece so you can take over my team.

Kudos to anyone who runs one of these leagues, or a tier system as a whole. It's a lot of work. Cheers.

Thanks for the offer but I'll pass. I don't have the time to commit to another team, even for a short time.

[metaldude26]

The league is better this year, but that's more a reflection of how bad things were in 2013-14. Plus, we went from 16 eager teams in 2013-14 to 11 this season, and it was only 11 because a couple of guys like me wanted to do good for the site and decided to stay involved despite not liking the set-up. I think you'd be hard pressed to get 8 for next season if all rules/scoring/categories were to remain the same.

Sure - maybe the leader hasn't gamed the system with FA pick-ups and crazy line-up shuffling, but others certainly have. I just don't have the time and energy, and I think the ability to do those things gives GMs a means to improve their teams based not on expertise, but on throwing darts and logging in frequently.

Plus, the lack of coverage of the league on the main site makes me wonder what purpose it actually serves at this point.

I still don't get what you mean by "gaming the system". You get 82 games per position. You can't cheat that with FA pickups and a "spray and pray" approach.

[MXHockey]

Thanks for the offer but I'll pass. I don't have the time to commit to another team, even for a short time.

No worries, it's too bad you don't have the time, you would be a good addition. Cheers.

[RizzeeDizzee]

I still don't get what you mean by "gaming the system". You get 82 games per position. You can't cheat that with FA pickups and a "spray and pray" approach.

Of course it's not cheating - it's just not expertise. Sure, I get that in the real NHL a GM can rotate players in and out of the daily line-up from a team's roster, but if I wanted a DFL-like experience I'd do DFL. This is a one year expert roto league, and I don't think playing the schedule game is representative of actual fantasy expertise.

[ericdaoust]

I still don't get what you mean by "gaming the system". You get 82 games per position. You can't cheat that with FA pickups and a "spray and pray" approach.

Agreed. The only thing the FA signings can do is prevent you from falling short of 82 games per position but that's certainly not enough to win a championship. It takes quality beyond maximizing GP to win.

[metaldude26]

Of course it's not cheating - it's just not expertise. Sure, I get that in the real NHL a GM can rotate players in and out of the daily line-up from a team's roster, but if I wanted a DFL-like experience I'd do DFL. This is a one year expert roto league, and I don't think playing the schedule game is representative of actual fantasy expertise.

Who is playing the schedule game? You are limited to 82 games per position. It's not about "maximizing games played" at all.

[RizzeeDizzee]

Who is playing the schedule game? You are limited to 82 games per position. It's not about "maximizing games played" at all.

You keep saying the same thing, and so do I. Neither of us is wrong. The key point I wanted to make and that I still stand behind is if there aren't major changes to the format then a league which boasted 16 teams and several columns per year on the site as recently as 2013-14 could find itself struggling to pull together even 8 GMs next season, of which maybe half would be active writers. Adhering to form over substance is never a good thing, including here.

[horrorfan]

You keep saying the same thing, and so do I. Neither of us is wrong. The key point I wanted to make and that I still stand behind is if there aren't major changes to the format then a league which boasted 16 teams and several columns per year on the site as recently as 2013-14 could find itself struggling to pull together even 8 GMs next season, of which maybe half would be active writers. Adhering to form over substance is never a good thing, including here.

In attempt to tie this back to the original thread, out of curiosity, what would be your ideal settings? Perhaps there is an interest in making it across the board and then a structure can be determined in order to revitalise the tiered system. Of course, having the ideas is one thing and putting it into practice (with dedicated organisers) is another. Since we have this thread, perhaps we can take advantage of the opportunity. What about the other managers in your league? Have they provided any feedback on what they like/dislike about the current setup? MD - this question goes to you as well as others who may be viewing this thread but haven't contributed.

Pengwin has done well to keep the Pro and Entry tied together and as planned there is regelation/promotion. If the Expert can be grouped back into it, with the condition of agreed settings for next year onwards, then perhaps it could work.

[ericdaoust]

Of course, having the ideas is one thing and putting it into practice (with dedicated organisers) is another.

To me this is the key. I don't fault any of the current organizers as they have done some excellent work especially on short notice. But for it to be as it was before requires a major long-term commitment almost year-round to keep everything going. When it was a big multi-tier thing Dobber was putting in a lot of work to make it a big thing. It was also treated like the biggest thing around. To me that is a far more significant factor than any particular league settings. If winning the league is a huge deal then the participants will be that much more committed.

With that said, I hated the weekly roster settings with the waiver claim budget. I'm a daily investment type of guy. If I have to fall back to a weekly schedule I simply forget about it. I have virtually no chance of ever winning such a league for this reason.

With all of that said, it is very possible that making this a big thing is not in the cards. It really takes a big commitment at the top to even make this a possibility.

[The Comish]

With that said, I hated the weekly roster settings with the waiver claim budget. I'm a daily investment type of guy. If I have to fall back to a weekly schedule I simply forget about it.

Ditto. I absolutely hated the weekly roster settings. I can't tell you the number of times I forgot when the deadline was and then managing the timing of FA pick ups was a royal pain in the butt. Honestly, I forgot that we had a 25 pick up limit. I was only reminded of this when I picked up my 23rd player last week. I think 25 is a good number, guys can't stream the flavour of the week, mitigating their meh to poor drafts. I think I aced my draft in this league and have been leading for most of the year, only relinquishing my lead last week, yet I've still used 23 FA picks. You can't predict injuries and the odd guy not performing up to expectations.

What should absolutely stay the same is the categories. I ran these leagues for the first couple of years due to it being my idea and was forced to change to a weekly format with FA bidding ($100) to make it easier for Dobber (only so much time in one day). Once he dropped out, we pretty much dropped the weekly starts.

While the leagues should all be the same, I don't see why they have to be 100% the same.

[metaldude26]

You keep saying the same thing, and so do I. Neither of us is wrong. The key point I wanted to make and that I still stand behind is if there aren't major changes to the format then a league which boasted 16 teams and several columns per year on the site as recently as 2013-14 could find itself struggling to pull together even 8 GMs next season, of which maybe half would be active writers. Adhering to form over substance is never a good thing, including here.

Your point about being able to stream and build a roster outside of the draft don't make sense within the context I've described. I mean, who is streaming in this setup? Who is winning because of anything but a well done draft?

I get the complaint, it's part of why we changed the settings in the first place. I fail to see how your complaint fits at all?

I think you're just coming up with an excuse to bow out when you really don't need one.

[metaldude26]

The issue of weekly starts isn't huge to me. It's just the way it was set up. You had to set your lineup on like a Tuesday but for Thursday and your waiver claims needed to be in on Wednesday. Just nonsense to me.

The way the current setup is weekly versus daily doesn't much matter except that you actually have recourse in the case of injury. Some would argue that as a negative but I only see it as positive.

Games played limit + limited pick ups forces well-planned roster management and avoids streaming. Daily lineups allows for daily investment and management.

[The Comish]

Games played limit + limited pick ups forces well-planned roster management and avoids streaming. Daily lineups allows for daily investment and management.

Well said.

[horrorfan]

To me this is the key. I don't fault any of the current organizers as they have done some excellent work especially on short notice. But for it to be as it was before requires a major long-term commitment almost year-round to keep everything going. When it was a big multi-tier thing Dobber was putting in a lot of work to make it a big thing. It was also treated like the biggest thing around. To me that is a far more significant factor than any particular league settings. If winning the league is a huge deal then the participants will be that much more committed.

With that said, I hated the weekly roster settings with the waiver claim budget. I'm a daily investment type of guy. If I have to fall back to a weekly schedule I simply forget about it. I have virtually no chance of ever winning such a league for this reason.

With all of that said, it is very possible that making this a big thing is not in the cards. It really takes a big commitment at the top to even make this a possibility.

I don't think it needs a lot of work to get it back towards the way it was before, or at least close to it.

What we have now (assuming they stay on) is two good organisers (Metaldude - Expert and Pengwin - Pro/Entry) who could coordinate and get leagues set up etc. That part should work itself out once we have a good number of managers and an agreed structure and settings.

What do the managers in the Expert want? That's the most important thing to start - to ensure it works in the future, you need enough committed people in your division. If you agree on the settings, and managers are committed to return, then you have a good starting base. Then you could ask other writers/columnists (if others yet to ask) and if needed, promote the top 3 from the Pro. I could see you increasing the numbers this way.

To ensure linkage, just make it a universal change. What you guys decide will be implemented in the Pro and Entry. Or, and I think this was mentioned above, it doesn't have to be a carbon copy (e.g. different transaction limits etc) but the main settings should be identical (Daily etc). This season, Pro has 16 teams, whereas the Entry has two divisions, one with 12 teams and one with 15. Given the interest there's due to be more in future years so you could promote a few more to Pro to make up the numbers going to Expert.

Right now we have 54 teams (11, 16, 12/15), so I don't see why we can't manage at least three divisions of 16 teams each, and with increased interest there can be two Entry divisions.

But...

What do the Expert managers want?

An answer to this question will go a long way into making the tiered system more sustainable.

[RizzeeDizzee]

I think you're just coming up with an excuse to bow out when you really don't need one.

I take strong exception to this, as if I wanted to bow out I would've done so prior to this season. Questioning my commitment is something that really pushes my buttons. I spend 10 hours on this site every week between the column, the forums, and this league. That's on top of a full time job (as an attorney), plus with two kids 10 and under (one of whom has crohns disease and the other PDD-NOS), and a wife who works 50+ hours a week as well.

Frankly, I think the league settings and rules are lousy. There - I said it. The fact that other categories (particularly SOG and +/-) count the same as Goals and Assists is ridiculous. It should either be points only or there should be weighting. And while I don't like weekly moves in general, I'd prefer it over daily moves where there can be endless cycling in and out of players such that it becomes an exercise of schedule planning more than running a team skillfully. Sure - a "real" team can put players in and out of the line-up, but that's when all players are on the same team. In fantasy hockey it shouldn't be allowed. And FA moves should be limited - one per month, to reduce dart throwing and to make there be more insight involved in picking up players. Also, limiting FA moves encourages trading, which was sorely lacking from the league.

Rant over.