Cory Schneider Starting Again Tonight....WHY?

[metaldude26]

Asking "why is he the only goalie to have done that?" says nothing about whether or not physical fatigue plays a large role. I'm very aware starting goalies usually don't play more than 60-65 games in a season, but I think there are a number of reasons aside from fatigue to explain that trend...

I know it's a demanding position - I just don't see how starting 16/16 games is so much more damaging than starting 13/16.

I don't think you appreciate just how much goes into physically and mentally preparing yourself to compete at the highest level and how much it takes to come down and recover from competing at said level. If you've ever dedicated much time to serious training you'll know that it's often recommended to give 36-48 hours between training sessions in order to recuperate properly to maximize your workouts. We're not just talking about muscle recover but also recovery of the neurotransmitters used in order to send the signals for your muscles to their jobs and you also need time to boost your hormone levels back up to a working degree.

Add in the fact that these guys are travelling (an added stressor) and usually don't sleep as well the day after a game (especially when travelling) you wind up with players who aren't getting the proper rest physically, mentally or emotionally.

Ask anyone involved in the game if teams play too much for optimal performance. It's absolutely the case. They can do it and they can get by for the most part but the performance is far from optimal. It's because of the compounding wear and tear these guys subject themselves too by playing so frequently without proper rest. There's a reason why you see elite NBA franchises like the San Antonio Spurs limiting the minutes and the number of games played for their players. They are interested in optimizing performance. They see the value in having fresher players and can do so because the professional ranks are burgeoning with high calibre athletes. A fresh sub is really better than a tired starter for a lot of minutes. It's where sports are headed.

[forumname]

I don't think you appreciate just how much goes into physically and mentally preparing yourself to compete at the highest level and how much it takes to come down and recover from competing at said level. If you've ever dedicated much time to serious training you'll know that it's often recommended to give 36-48 hours between training sessions in order to recuperate properly to maximize your workouts. We're not just talking about muscle recover but also recovery of the neurotransmitters used in order to send the signals for your muscles to their jobs and you also need time to boost your hormone levels back up to a working degree.

Add in the fact that these guys are travelling (an added stressor) and usually don't sleep as well the day after a game (especially when travelling) you wind up with players who aren't getting the proper rest physically, mentally or emotionally.

Ask anyone involved in the game if teams play too much for optimal performance. It's absolutely the case. They can do it and they can get by for the most part but the performance is far from optimal. It's because of the compounding wear and tear these guys subject themselves too by playing so frequently without proper rest. There's a reason why you see elite NBA franchises like the San Antonio Spurs limiting the minutes and the number of games played for their players. They are interested in optimizing performance. They see the value in having fresher players and can do so because the professional ranks are burgeoning with high calibre athletes. A fresh sub is really better than a tired starter for a lot of minutes. It's where sports are headed.

Ok, somewhat convincing, but where do you draw the line then? If 120 minutes of game time in 2 days is too much, why isn't 60 minutes of game time in 1 day too much? Why not give your backup the 2nd period?

[mojavedesert]

Well, NJ won.
Now Schneider can rest for a few days before playing this weekend's back-to-back.

[yougo]

Lost a parlor bet because of this game... I'm pissed. I took Minny because NJ was on back-to-backs, and that they were going again with a uber tired Schneider. oh well, win some loose some.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: parlay*

[Leumas]

I agree with forumname

Marty Brodeur used to say that he felt like he could play all 82 games. I don't think he was in the elite fitness category either.

He said something to the effect that if forwards and Dmen can play every game then why not a goalie because it isn't as physically demanding.

I'll take his word for it.

[mister_mcgoo]

he won though no?

[metaldude26]

Ok, somewhat convincing, but where do you draw the line then? If 120 minutes of game time in 2 days is too much, why isn't 60 minutes of game time in 1 day too much? Why not give your backup the 2nd period?

I'm sure that's what we are in the process of finding out but for having your goalie come in for the second, well that wouldn't work that well because the body would start to come down from getting amped up and start going into recovery mode. All the lactic acid would build up, etc. It would make it even more strenuous to try and get going again. I'm sure you've played in a tournament, or hell even if you've gone to an open gym basketball or something. If you sit too long you seize up and it takes a while to get back going again. Try doing that as an NHL goalie where quick reflexes and flexibility are tantamount.

I would wager that the length of an NHL game is right around length where we'd expect to see declining ability due to fatigue. Sometimes you see it when a goalie is facing a lot of shots that fatigue hits earlier. Think Gudlevskis cramping up against Canada. Goalies could probably go a while longer, especially the fitter ones. The problem comes when you stop the engine and then have to start it again. Once the body comes down from that elevated state it's used up a lot of it's hormones. The adrenaline, the testosterone, etc. It needs time to get those built back up again.

And hey, in a vacuum, doing a single back-to-back. Probably not that challenging for these elite athletes. It's the doing it again and again and practicing, and travelling and losing sleep where it all adds up. The cumulative effect of playing Wednesday, flying to Columbus, sleeping on the plane, practicing Thursday, playing Friday, flying back home, practicing Saturday, playing Sunday, playing Monday, travelling on Tuesday, and on and on for days and weeks on end where you just have to say, maybe we give the guy a scheduled break from time to time. These guys don't get weekends? Ever lived out of a suitcase? Without weekends? I realize that these guys have a dream job but it's still a job. The stress is real. The demands of getting that body to perform at it's absolute best 82 nights or more a year are real. It doesn't just happen, which is why the term "off night", as in, "he's having an off night" exists.

[metaldude26]

I agree with forumname

Marty Brodeur used to say that he felt like he could play all 82 games. I don't think he was in the elite fitness category either.

He said something to the effect that if forwards and Dmen can play every game then why not a goalie because it isn't as physically demanding.

I'll take his word for it.

Of course he did. You understand the egos on these players are massive right? They have to be but it doesn't make it rational. This is the same Brodeur who still thinks he should be a starter in this league even though no one agrees with him. And you know what? He would probably have played all 82 if they would have let him and he'd have loved it but I bet they aren't getting the best Brodeur they could on all of those nights. Or maybe he's a complete freak and they would have. What's normal for him isn't necessarily normal for everyone else. Maybe he has supreme endurance and super-fast recovery skills. Maybe he has an ability to achieve sleep and get real rest in unorthodox circumstances, which allows him to recover faster. And maybe Schneider has those abilities too. However, we are seeing that most athletes, even the best of the best at the NHL level don't have that ability.

Another thing to consider. Stylistically, Brodeur wasn't considered a "butterfly" goalie, which is the standard setup of every goalie in the league these days. Sure, Brodeur used the butterfly plenty but it was never his one go-to. I don't know if you are aware of how taxing bouncing up and down, in and out of the butterfly is. It's an extremely violent movement, which will tire you out in a hurry, even if you train to do it 100+ times a night. Maybe, Brodeur not using the butterfly as frequently spared him some wear and tear.

If I had to bet on just one of these reasons being why Brodeur said he could go all 82, I'm going with the ego even if it's maybe a combo of all of them and some that I didn't even mention.

[rataylor22]

Basically agree with all of Steve's points and don't have much to add. I promise that the approximately 70-100 times a goalie goes up and down during a game is more taxing than skating 20 minutes of ice time.

To be clear, I don't care if he won or lost tonight, played well or played poorly. This much work is going to catch up to him and I think we've already seen it in some form this season. He got a win so everyone says my point is invalid. Well he got blown out last night on 3 pretty bad goals for him to let in. Even benefitting from the stats he got tonight, I still wish he would have been given a rest. Thankfully Jersey has some days off now.

[2014olympicgold]

After a team for, what seemed like 20yrs, had a goalie that played 65+ starts a yr, I bet they’re just use to it. Schneider won’t say no, he’s been waiting for a chance to play for his entire career. It’s not the same NJD team that would make all 20saves Brodeur had to make easy, but management and the team persona is that the goalie can play 65+ starts a yr.

[jeff416]

Agreed with metal dude. Aside from the stress on the body, particularly the knees, goal is a mentally taxing position to play - having to be "on" at the switch of a button, and then off for stretches, then "on" again. The flow is so much different from a skating position and is stressful. I can't see how Schneider keeps this up without results tanking.

[mojavedesert]

Basically agree with all of Steve's points and don't have much to add. I promise that the approximately 70-100 times a goalie goes up and down during a game is more taxing than skating 20 minutes of ice time.

To be clear, I don't care if he won or lost tonight, played well or played poorly. This much work is going to catch up to him and I think we've already seen it in some form this season. He got a win so everyone says my point is invalid. Well he got blown out last night on 3 pretty bad goals for him to let in. Even benefitting from the stats he got tonight, I still wish he would have been given a rest. Thankfully Jersey has some days off now.

Plus, goalie gear is heavier than skaters' gear. Adds to the effort.

[ericdaoust]

Hasek and Thomas are such smart goalies. Go down once, flop like a fish for 10 minutes. Maybe get up during the TV timeout. Rinse and repeat.

[Magicstew]

As a Schneider owner happy with all the starts, especially with Bobrovsky out, but have to agree they need to give him some rest. Once second half of season starts and they really are battling for playoffs it is a lot more mentally draining.
Devils also got to give some of their young guys an opportunity to get there feet wet.
Knock on wood, what if Schneider gets hurt, what does NJ do? Resign Brodeur I guess.

[Axeman33]

As a Schneider owner happy with all the starts, especially with Bobrovsky out, but have to agree they need to give him some rest. Once second half of season starts and they really are battling for playoffs it is a lot more mentally draining.
Devils also got to give some of their young guys an opportunity to get there feet wet.
Knock on wood, what if Schneider gets hurt, what does NJ do? Resign Brodeur I guess.

LOL! Wait until you read my Axe to Grind article coming out this afternoon. I submitted it yesterday but I mention something similar to this in it.