Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

[Pengwin7]

Holmer totally lost the JVR-for-Schenn deal, true.
But defensemen have been hard to come by and he was totally handicapped by the Pronger injury.

People keep focusing on how LA won the cup with Carter/Richards.
1. Look at Mike Richards for Simmonds/B.Schenn. I want somebody to straight-up say "LA won that trade". Nope, no way.
2. Look at Jeff Carter for Voracek/Couturier. I want somebody to straight-up say "LA won that trade". This one is debatable, but I think if you interviewed NHL brass, they'd give PHI the win.

What LA did do was to get a very good turn-trade on Carter for Jack Johnson, steal, IMO.
But THAT part of the trade has NOTHING to do with Holmgren - so not worth mentioning.

LA won their cup because Quick went on an absolute goaltending tear for 2 months.
But Mike Richards was only a +1 and Jeff Carter was only a +0 in those playoffs.
That was mostly Kopitar (+16), Brown (+16), Williams (+8), and Doughty (+11) that carried that team by skaters.

At best, Richards was the 6th most valuable player on that LA cup team... Carter was the 7th most valuable player on that LA cup team.
So - when we talk about them being two of PHI's top two players... but only LA's 6th/7th best players of that cup run, what does that say?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...delphia-flyers

Also - as for PHI not being back to a cup since 2011.
Ummm... Chris. Pronger.... anybody?
2009-2010 was his last healthy year, 82 games.
Losing him was just straight up bad luck - which makes performance for Holmer's Flyers a little tougher than it should have been.

That guy was an absolute rock for any club.
Look at the Edmonton Oilers - go find their best season in their last 20 years.
Do you know who is on that team?
Chris Pronger.

Holmer hasn't been stellar, but he's been good.

And lockerroom problems are real problems that need to be dealt with, quickly... even if you don't get full return.

[theIceWookie]

So people keep talking about how Richards/Carter had helped LA to win the Cup. Sure why not.

But what about their actual season to season production.

Mike Richards has three seasons with the Kings and 41 goals, 117 points to show for it. Wayne Simmonds has 72 goals, and 142 points during that same period.

Jeff Carter has 74 goals and 117 points in his three seasons post Flyers. Voracek has 63 goals and 157 points in that same period.

Carter (5.27) and Richards (5.75) take up a combined 11.02 million in cap space every year. Voracek and Simmonds take up a combined 8.225 million dollars in cap.

Plus the Flyers have Coturier and Schenn from the deals as well (and Cousins).

On the whole, it looks like the Flyers made out with the better end of the deals on paper. Did LA win the cup? Yep, but it doesn't prove that Philly would have had they kept Carter/Richards. Considering the better players on paper happen to reside on the Flyers team, I'm not sure you could say that the Flyers would have won the cup.

The bigger issue is that the team should have taken Dougie Hamilton with the Couturier pick. It was one of the dumber decisions Holmgren made over the years.

[mister_mcgoo]

People keep focusing on how LA won the cup with Carter/Richards.

We keep focusing on it because it's glaringly obvious to anyone who isn't a Philly homer trying to rationalize the trade.

LA cups WITH Carter/Richards = 1
LA cups WITHOUT Carter/Richard = 0

PHI finals berth WITH Carter/Richards = 1
PHI finals berth WITHOUT Carter/Richards = 0

Results speak louder than 'what ifs' IMO. Down the road will this prove to be the better path for Philly? Possibly, it's too soon to call at this point, I certainly wouldn't say they screwed themselves or lost the deal badly or anything...at the time it looked really bad but not now...and I agree with you that the team looks pretty promising for the future. But the fact remains that the deal cost them their immediate shot at the cup for a possible shot at it down the road. It may pay off, but the odds are against them so we'll hafta see.

I broke down the difference in the LA roster pre and post trade, other than the key pieces discussed here they are identical, so it's foolish to argue that they didn't have a big impact when the team bows out in the first round the one year and then wins the cup the next. It's just nonsensical.

What LA did do was to get a very good turn-trade on Carter for Jack Johnson, steal, IMO.
But THAT part of the trade has NOTHING to do with Holmgren - so not worth mentioning.

Absolutely, but my point wasn't to diss Holmgrem for LA's shrewd move, it was merely to point out that he traded away two top notch players who have proven success at every level. That he traded future potential for a proven commodity. That's all.

LA won their cup because Quick went on an absolute goaltending tear for 2 months.
But Mike Richards was only a +1 and Jeff Carter was only a +0 in those playoffs.
That was mostly Kopitar (+16), Brown (+16), Williams (+8), and Doughty (+11) that carried that team by skaters.

At best, Richards was the 6th most valuable player on that LA cup team... Carter was the 7th most valuable player on that LA cup team.
So - when we talk about them being two of PHI's top two players... but only LA's 6th/7th best players of that cup run, what does that say?

There's so many things wrong with this argument I scarcely know where to begin.

Lets start with the most obvious...if you hafta resort to +/- to argue for the strength of an individual player then you've already lost...weak, weak weak

Focus first and foremost on what matters most, scoring:

-Richards - 4G - 11A - 6PPP -1GWG
-Carter - 8G - 5A - 4PPP - 3GWG
-Carter's 8 goals tied him for best on the team
-Richards 6PPP tied him for best on the team
-2 of Carter's GWG came in the finals, one in OT and one of them in the deciding Game 6

6th/7th best? pffft, get a grip...Memorial Cup, Calder Cup, Stanley Cup, WJC gold, Olympic gold, what more do they have to accomplish before they're worthy of even an ounce of your jaded Flyers respect? For someone who preaches non-stop about how we'd all be a little smarter if only we'd played a 'little more hockey' you sure make some ignorant arguments with how you evaluate players. Plus Minus? Seriously?

Don't care for scoring numbers? how about focusing on the secondary value they bring to the team after scoring?

Richards is one of the better 2-way forwards in the league:

-15 blocked shots (tied for 1st on the team among forwards with Kopitar)
-PP TOI - 3:59 (tied for 1st among forwards with Kopitar)
-SH TOI - 2:09 (behind only Kopitar at 2:12 and Stoll at 2:26)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...delphia-flyers

Bleacher Report? I'm not even going to dignify that with a reply, what you gonna reference an article by Ecklund next? lmao

Weak argument backing up an even weaker argument Pengwin.

[Pengwin7]

6th/7th best? pffft, get a grip...Memorial Cup, Calder Cup, Stanley Cup, WJC gold, Olympic gold, what more do they have to accomplish before they're worthy of even an ounce of your jaded Flyers respect?

Fine.
List the LA players as you see them in order of value during that Stanley Cup playoffs.
That will make it clearer for us.

(ps. Mike Richards is my favourite NHL player in the league, I can tell you exactly when & where he's been a most valuable member on his team.)

[mister_mcgoo]

Fine.
List the LA players as you see them in order of value during that Stanley Cup playoffs.
That will make it clearer for us.

(ps. Mike Richards is my favourite NHL player in the league, I can tell you exactly when & where he's been a most valuable member on his team.)

"Fine" that's your counter? lol...um ok I guess

I think the whole notion of trying to define a quantifiable list ordered by value to the team is ******ed to begin with.
What are you even measuring with such a list? Every player on the roster brings something to the table, how can you possibly weigh the contributions of even the top players against one another, especially when they don't even play the same position? I mean Quick is the only goaltender so you're already stuck comparing apples to oranges with skaters...how many saves by the goalie is equal a goal by the forward? Depends on the quality of the save doesn't it? Or what about secondary stats...were Brown's team leading 93 hits as valuable as Richards 15 blocked shots? It all depends on what the hit accomplished and what the block accomplished doesn't it? Is Carter's PP time more valuable than Mitchell's PK time? Which was more valuable to them winning the cup, Quick or Doughty? lol It's a fool's errand at best.

Raw stats can be helpful in getting an idea of how valuable a player was to his team in a cup run like this...you presented some and I countered with some much better ones but that hardly tells the whole story if you just look at the numbers in isolation. I'm not sure how many Kings playoffs games you caught that year but I was fortunate enough to catch quite a few, especially after the 1st round and I would argue that Richards was instrumental in them wining the cup...Carter? Well he's more 1-dimensional to be sure but he scores big and timely goals so that's not to be dismissed lightly. So whatever, pencil them in wherever you want in your list but I maintain that the Kings don't win that cup without them. I also maintain that the Flyers made it to the cup because of them.

[Pengwin7]

No list?

[mister_mcgoo]

No list?

Why? Its a useless exercise. Why not compare related players at least if you absolutely MUST play the 'this guy is better than this guy' game?

IMHO as far as the forwards go, Richards was the most valuable guy not wearing a Kopitar jersey in those playoffs...after him? probably Brown, Carter, Williams in that order

I'm sure you'll build a mountain out of that molehill, so have at it

[Pengwin7]

(Last word can be yours. I'm done with this thread. I'll award you "the win". I shall admit defeat.)

[mister_mcgoo]

(Last word can be yours. I'm done with this thread. I'll award you "the win". I shall admit defeat.)

Gracious of you but no win or lose IMO.
I agree with your assessment that Holmgrem, having made the decision that Richards+Carter had to go, made some quality moves that landed him a nice return and resulted in a promising team for the future.
Where we disagree is with the fundamental decision that they had to be moved...so far I'd maintain that short term it was a poor decision, long term if the Flyers get back to the finals I'd call it a wash.

[MXHockey]

To simplify this, my belief is Philly had a better chance to win the Cup with Richards and Carter than without them. The team had a 2-3 year window to be a serious contender and due to trading Carter and Richards (and fair enough if they had to due to locker room issues) there is no question that they set themselves back significantly. Today Philly is a playoff team in the East, but a 2nd tier playoff team in the conference. They are not even close to being the contender that they were.

As for Carter and Richards in LA - they are key pieces to the team's depth whether they are the 3rd/4th best players or 7th/8th best players. Depth is about a variety of players having the ability to step up on any given night to push a team to a victory - rather than relying on core guys like many teams do. There are many nights where Carter has been the team's best player. Any team would want Richards/Carter and would improve with them, especially three seasons ago when these trades occurred. Without them, I doubt LA wins a Cup as the current depth guys would have been relied on more in roles they weren't ready for yet - LA wouldn't have beaten Vancouver in the first round in 2011-2012. Richards and Carter played against top opposition during the Cup run, so to use their plus/minus and only key on Kopitar/Williams/Doughty's higher plus-minus isn't an accurate argument.

Kopitar would be a 85-90 point player on a lot of other teams. Due to LA's system he is a 70 point player. The same theory applies to the point totals for Carter and Richards - lower numbers in LA due to a more defensive system. Crosby wouldn't break 100 points playing under Sutter...........but Sutter's system works as noted by the team's playoff results.

So today, three years later, perhaps the trades look better for Philly, but they are not as competitive as they were - and as mcgoo points out the key is results and playoff success - both which Philly hasn't provided regardless of how one views Holmgren's moves over the past 2-3 years.

[27Blue]

Regardles of Carter and Richards, Holmgren was an average GM. His inability to manage the cap or build from within always left him chasing players to compete on a year to year basis. Seemed like he never had a plan, which led him to make too many gambles - though some turned out and he was very lucky in a number of cases... though, all good teams have had their share of luck. If I was a Flyers fan, I would be much happier with Hextall driving the ship. Much.

[MXHockey]

Carter and Richards - a goal and an assist each tonight, clutch in a huge game seven. Flyers fans continue to grieve.