Tampa Bay Goaltending.....

[arctic_rogue]

This is semantics but what makes Bernier a prospect and Schneider not? 41 NHL games vs. 54 NHL games. I'll agree all day that Schneider has more experience from having played for two extra years and made the full time leap to a pro a year before Bernier did but both made it to the NHL full time at the same time and are well established as backups in this league.

I dunno but it seems to me like you were intentionally drawing a line in the sand there between those two and I am curious why. I think Schneider is more polished but barely more proven. His NHL playoff experience is the only thing I could really see but maybe you draw the line at a specific games played. Just looking for clarification.

I have to agree with you. I definitely see Schneider as the more desirable (at this point in time anyways), but I definitely don't see Schneider as proven. A little more experienced than Bernier, but that's about it.

If Quick happened to have the turbulent times that Luongo had, we might not even be having this conversation. I don't think anyone could argue that Schneider is a little more experienced because of an edge in skill over Bernier - it really just comes down to two situations. Schneider has been a little more fortunate to see more games.

[blayze]

This is semantics but what makes Bernier a prospect and Schneider not? 41 NHL games vs. 54 NHL games. I'll agree all day that Schneider has more experience from having played for two extra years and made the full time leap to a pro a year before Bernier did but both made it to the NHL full time at the same time and are well established as backups in this league.

I dunno but it seems to me like you were intentionally drawing a line in the sand there between those two and I am curious why. I think Schneider is more polished but barely more proven. His NHL playoff experience is the only thing I could really see but maybe you draw the line at a specific games played. Just looking for clarification.

I was most definitely intentionally drawing a line in the sand. I thought that was pretty obvious in my first post as well as my previous one lol.

My reasons are both quantitative and qualitative:

-Although the delta between them in terms of total games is only 13, Schneider has more experience playing for longer, more continuous stretches - and this is the kind of experience you need if you're going to be a #1 in the league. Bernier just plays random games here and there. Bernier and Schneider both played 25 last season (I recall Schneider starting a long string of games that season too but I could be wrong), but this season Schneider has played 19 versus 9 for Quick, and more importantly, a significant chunk of those 19 were for a long-stretch when Luongo was out and Schneider did an amazing job carrying the team.

-Schneider has played BIG GAMES. He played 5 playoff games last season... despite paying Luongo $10M a year last season, canucks management had so much confidence in this kid that they STILL played him. I bet Quick can completely shit the bed in the playoffs, and kings management still wouldn't have the confidence in Bernier to let him start in those circumstances. This big-game experience cannot be underestimated. This kid has ice in his vains and he showed it by arguably outplaying Luongo in a do-or-die situation in front of the most critical fans in the NHL.

-Schneider has been hands-down the better performer. Sure, Vancouver is better than LA, but as you've demonstrated, the delta between these two clubs defensively isn't as large as many would believe.

Schneider in 25 last season: 16 wins, .929 save %, 2.23 GAA
Bernier in 25 last season: 11 wins, .912 save %, 2.48 GAA

Schneider in 19 this season: 10 wins, .927 save %, 2.30 GAA
Bernier in 9 this season: 3 wins, .895 save %, 2.73 GAA

-Finally, and this is plainly subjective, I've watched tons of west coast games over the last few years because for whatever reason I somehow always end up with west coast players on my teams, and I have been thoroughly impressed watching Schneider in goal. The kid looks poised and unflappable. On the other hand, I haven't been impressed at all watching Bernier... the kid does not look solid and I would have zero confidence putting him in a position to be my #1 if I'm Stevie Y.

Hence Stud vs. Prospect. Need I say more?

[arctic_rogue]

I bet Quick can completely shit the bed in the playoffs, and kings management still wouldn't have the confidence in Bernier to let him start in those circumstances. This big-game experience cannot be underestimated. This kid has ice in his vains and he showed it by arguably outplaying Luongo in a do-or-die situation in front of the most critical fans in the NHL.

You are basing this purely on speculation - which does nothing to add to you qualitative/quantitative argument. That big game experience was solely an opportunity for Schneider. We cannot assume that Bernier would not get the same chance unless Quick actually did shit the bed in the playoffs and still continued to start all of the games.

Again, with the games played by each of Schneider and Bernier, I think you are premature to label Schneider a Stud. I can't argue with Bernier being a prospect, but the Stud label is a bit much.

Wouldn't you consider this young goalie a stud?

First 61 games: 2.29 GAA, .916 SvPct, 10 SHO

If so, I'll gladly send you Mr. Mason for one of your prospects!

-Sorry, couldn't resist!

[metaldude26]

I was most definitely intentionally drawing a line in the sand. I thought that was pretty obvious in my first post as well as my previous one lol.

My reasons are both quantitative and qualitative:

-Although the delta between them in terms of total games is only 13, Schneider has more experience playing for longer, more continuous stretches - and this is the kind of experience you need if you're going to be a #1 in the league. Bernier just plays random games here and there. Bernier and Schneider both played 25 last season (I recall Schneider starting a long string of games that season too but I could be wrong), but this season Schneider has played 19 versus 9 for Quick, and more importantly, a significant chunk of those 19 were for a long-stretch when Luongo was out and Schneider did an amazing job carrying the team.

-Schneider has played BIG GAMES. He played 5 playoff games last season... despite paying Luongo $10M a year last season, canucks management had so much confidence in this kid that they STILL played him. I bet Quick can completely shit the bed in the playoffs, and kings management still wouldn't have the confidence in Bernier to let him start in those circumstances. This big-game experience cannot be underestimated. This kid has ice in his vains and he showed it by arguably outplaying Luongo in a do-or-die situation in front of the most critical fans in the NHL.

-Schneider has been hands-down the better performer. Sure, Vancouver is better than LA, but as you've demonstrated, the delta between these two clubs defensively isn't as large as many would believe.

Schneider in 25 last season: 16 wins, .929 save %, 2.23 GAA
Bernier in 25 last season: 11 wins, .912 save %, 2.48 GAA

Schneider in 19 this season: 10 wins, .927 save %, 2.30 GAA
Bernier in 9 this season: 3 wins, .895 save %, 2.73 GAA

-Finally, and this is plainly subjective, I've watched tons of west coast games over the last few years because for whatever reason I somehow always end up with west coast players on my teams, and I have been thoroughly impressed watching Schneider in goal. The kid looks poised and unflappable. On the other hand, I haven't been impressed at all watching Bernier... the kid does not look solid and I would have zero confidence putting him in a position to be my #1 if I'm Stevie Y.

Hence Stud vs. Prospect. Need I say more?

Not sure you can be, HAHA. I do have a couple of criticisms. The first is that what LA would or would not do with Quick is purely speculative. Until we see Quick shit the bed we really cannot know what would happen with their goaltending in the playoffs, especially since they have a new head coach.

The other thing is that as you mentioned Bernier is only getting random games. Do you not think this is working against him? I mean, rhythm is extremely important for goalies and with Luongo and Schneider, Luongo has gotten hurt and he has played like garbage which has opened the door for Schneider to come in and get starts consistently. Bernier, he comes in with spot starts and does not really know when he is going to get another game. Seems to me that Bernier might benefit from a Schneider-like experience.

This is not so much a criticism of your designation of Bernier as a prospect since the fact he is not getting consecutive opportunities IS a good reason to give him unproven status so this is more just a discussion point.

[blayze]

You are basing this purely on speculation - which does nothing to add to you qualitative/quantitative argument. That big game experience was solely an opportunity for Schneider. We cannot assume that Bernier would not get the same chance unless Quick actually did shit the bed in the playoffs and still continued to start all of the games.

Again, with the games played by each of Schneider and Bernier, I think you are premature to label Schneider a Stud. I can't argue with Bernier being a prospect, but the Stud label is a bit much.

Obviously it's speculation... hence I said "I BET".

It doesn't matter if Bernier hasn't had the opportunity that Schneider has. It makes no sense for you to equalize them because of that or to take anything away from Schneider. The fact of the matter is, one guy had an opportunity in the playoffs, and he ran with it.

We can speculate all we want about how Bernier would perform IF he had that opportunity, but the fact of the matter is Bernier hasn't had that opportunity and thus he hasn't proven how he would handle it.

Would you rather have the guy who has proven it, or the guy who hasn't had the chance that he can prove it?

And while we're on the subject of opportunities, Schneider and Bernier both had 25 games last season... that's as apples-to-apples as it gets... and I think it's pretty clear who did a better job proving themselves.

The stud label was overblown, but I wanted to make a dramatic statement

[dyzfunctioned]

Ahh, see without acknowledging that your post came off as argumentative.

My bad.

[10 characters]

[blayze]

Not sure you can be, HAHA. I do have a couple of criticisms. The first is that what LA would or would not do with Quick is purely speculative. Until we see Quick shit the bed we really cannot know what would happen with their goaltending in the playoffs, especially since they have a new head coach.

The other thing is that as you mentioned Bernier is only getting random games. Do you not think this is working against him? I mean, rhythm is extremely important for goalies and with Luongo and Schneider, Luongo has gotten hurt and he has played like garbage which has opened the door for Schneider to come in and get starts consistently. Bernier, he comes in with spot starts and does not really know when he is going to get another game. Seems to me that Bernier might benefit from a Schneider-like experience.

This is not so much a criticism of your designation of Bernier as a prospect since the fact he is not getting consecutive opportunities IS a good reason to give him unproven status so this is more just a discussion point.

1) Agreed it's speculative - see above. I do feel strongly however, that given how Schneider has performed in the regular season vs how Bernier has performed, that my speculation would pan out in a playoff situation... but yes, purely spec.

2) I agree, continuity is important for a goalie, and I do think net, net, this may be working against Bernier. But as I mentioned above, you can't use that as an argument against Schneider. One guy happens to have had opportunities and he's taken advantage of them... the other guy hasn't had the same opportunities in some respects, so we're uncertain (hence "prospect"). Continuity is earned though, if Bernier played well consistently like Schneider, then I'm sure he would get more opportunity to start consistently, hence its a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy due to his shitty performances. Opportunity is earned. You guys make it sound like Bernier is some helpless victim who's been shafted opportunity wise

I think the big picture you guys are missing here, despite these minor differences in perceived opportunities, is the NUMBERS. The numbers paint a clear picture as to who the better goalie has been. 25 games - that's the number of games the BOTH played last year. The results were not even close. The story is the same this year... less games for Bernier, but look at his numbers... atrocious! Meanwhile Schneider carried the Canucks for a long stretch. If the numbers were closer, I definitely wouldn't be making such bold statements to differentiate the two, but there is a clear winner here my friends.

[arctic_rogue]

I think the big picture you guys are missing here, despite these minor differences in perceived opportunities, is the NUMBERS. The numbers paint a clear picture as to who the better goalie has been. 25 games - that's the number of games the BOTH played last year. The results were not even close. The story is the same this year... less games for Bernier, but look at his numbers... atrocious! Meanwhile Schneider carried the Canucks for a long stretch...

You conceded the stud comment. I'm happy!

I'll agree with you on the numbers. Up until this year, Schneider has had a slight edge. However, this year he is doing much better. Chalk it up to whatever - bad rythym for Bernier, better skills from Schneider, etc - the numbers do side with Schneider right now.

If I were Steve Y and could get Schneider for the same cost as Bernier, I'd be all over it. However, Schneider's (perceived or not) advantage over Bernier would of course probably relate to a cost increase. Of course the amount of that jump would determine if Schneider is worth it over Bernier or not.

[metaldude26]

I think the big picture you guys are missing here, despite these minor differences in perceived opportunities, is the NUMBERS. The numbers paint a clear picture as to who the better goalie has been. 25 games - that's the number of games the BOTH played last year. The results were not even close. The story is the same this year... less games for Bernier, but look at his numbers... atrocious! Meanwhile Schneider carried the Canucks for a long stretch. If the numbers were closer, I definitely wouldn't be making such bold statements to differentiate the two, but there is a clear winner here my friends.

Maybe that's just a general statement because I don't see how I am missing the big picture. I'm not arguing who is better, which is what the numbers tangibly tell us. I agree that Schneider is better just mining the situation for more because I don't think that there is such a clear line to be drawn with regard to Bernier. Is he better? No. Is he a prospect still? Debatable but I would argue that Bernier is a lot closer to being a proven NHL goaltender than Schneider is from not being a prospect.

The fact is that Schneider has still never had to carry a team for an extended stretch and face the brunt of the criticism for the teams success and struggles. The most games he's started in a row in his career is six. Personally, I'd like to see more before we annoint him to be more than a prospect.

[arctic_rogue]

Maybe that's just a general statement because I don't see how I am missing the big picture. I'm not arguing who is better, which is what the numbers tangibly tell us. I agree that Schneider is better just mining the situation for more because I don't think that there is such a clear line to be drawn with regard to Bernier. Is he better? No. Is he a prospect still? Debatable but I would argue that Bernier is a lot closer to being a proven NHL goaltender than Schneider is from not being a prospect.

The fact is that Schneider has still never had to carry a team for an extended stretch and face the brunt of the criticism for the teams success and struggles. The most games he's started in a row in his career is six. Personally, I'd like to see more before we annoint him to be more than a prospect.

Do I smell a cage match brewing?

[metaldude26]

Do I smell a cage match brewing?

Nope. I'll leave the goalies to Mr. Goldman.

[blayze]

Maybe that's just a general statement because I don't see how I am missing the big picture. I'm not arguing who is better, which is what the numbers tangibly tell us. I agree that Schneider is better just mining the situation for more because I don't think that there is such a clear line to be drawn with regard to Bernier. Is he better? No. Is he a prospect still? Debatable but I would argue that Bernier is a lot closer to being a proven NHL goaltender than Schneider is from not being a prospect.

The fact is that Schneider has still never had to carry a team for an extended stretch and face the brunt of the criticism for the teams success and struggles. The most games he's started in a row in his career is six. Personally, I'd like to see more before we annoint him to be more than a prospect.

The reason I keep harping on about their performance is because for me, consistent performance has a lot do with the prospect label. It's not just about number of games you've played. If you've proven consistently that you can perform at a high level in the league (and I think we can all agree that Schneider is as consistent as they come ), then that goes a long way in shedding the prospect label in my eyes.

From this perspective, Bernier is the classic definition of a prospect... many believe that he's capable of performing at a high level, yet he hasn't shown it. Given what Schneider has shown us in terms of consistent performance and big game experience, I find it very difficult to justify labelling him a "prospect".

I do agree that Schneider hasn't played a full season so he hasn't proven he'd excel as a #1 yet, but given what I've seen, I'd have a ton more confidence giving him the reigns than Bernier.

[One87]

Agree 100%. But based on prior performance, he does have significant potential.

No question. He was a highly touted prospect who got decent run last year, and had Quick owners a little worried. This year Quick has silenced that issue.

[arctic_rogue]

No question. He was a highly touted prospect who got decent run last year, and had Quick owners a little worried. This year Quick has silenced that issue.

With authority at that. If the Kings could lock Quick up to a long term deal, I think you'd see Bernier shipped off fairly quickly.

[dyzfunctioned]

Don't see what pointing to the numbers really means... if we want to look at those I can point up Bernier's superior AHL season.

Point is, Schneider got a chance to show off his stuff because the starter struggled. Bernier had a very brief stretch but Quick has been largely flawless. Hell, he could win Vezina this year.

I mean straight up I'd take Schneider over Bernier but fact is one's had far more opportunity than the other, has been given a chance to establish a rhythm rather than just do spot starts, etc.