Is Scott Niedermayer in your Top 10 D-men of alltime?

[sexymountain]

This guy on The Score(Canadian Sports Channel) said that he was definitely in his top 10 of alltime. I was racking my head trying to come up with at least 10 guys I would have ahead of Scott.

Players I thought were higher. A lot of guys on that fringe top 10 zone.

Bobby Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom (The Obvious')
Al MacInnis, Paul Coffey, Chris Pronger, Brian Leetch
Eddie Shore, Doug Harvey,(even though i never saw these 2 play, so i decided to leave them out)
Dennis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens

Maybe, I'm drinking the Scott Niedermayer haterade, but he has never had a statistically big season (regular and playoffs). He's won everywhere he's been, but to me he's just a very good defence men that's been in the right place, right time. HoF worthy most likely, but top 10 all-time, not for me.

[slufoot]

Wouldn't put Stevens or MacInnis on a list ahead of him. Maybe his equal but definitely not ahead of him. I'd probably have Brad Park and King Clancy on instead of those guys.

Not that I saw either play, but Park had some ridiculous stats along with playing a physical role, and Clancy scored at a 0.5 GPG rate back when most defencemen were scoring 2-3 per season - pretty impressive.

My top 10?
1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Harvey
4. Robinson
5. Coffey
6. Potvin
7. Bourque
8. Shore
9. Chelios
10. Pronger

[Maaaasquito]

I dunno I think it's hard to compare players from a different era, which is why near impossible to justify those "all-time" best arguments.

The thing you have to consider is that Niedermayer never had a big statistical season because he mostly played in a huge defensive era of hockey. No one scored in that era, so it's even harder for a defenseman to put up respectable points. If you look back to 1997-98, Niedermayer's 57 points (2nd amongst blue-liners) would be the equivalent to Lidstrom's 62 last season.

So eventhough we don't see him with 70+ points like Lidstrom, his stats are still pretty in line with "all time" numbers...

For me if you include Leetch, Bourque or Pronger, then you have to include Nieds, because Nieds has achieved as much if not more than Leetch, Bourque or Pronger...

I dunno just too hard to argue "all time". For me it's best to think or "era" than all time.

[notoriousjim]

good list of guys there. i would argree that neids is at best a fringe top 10 guys.

I think the simple way to gauge it would be by # of norris awards won:
orr 8
harvey 7
lindstrom 6
bourque 5
pilote 3 (edited to add to this list)
chelios 2
leech 2
larry robinson 2
rod langway 2
potvin 3
coffey 3
neids 1

so by that logic the obvious guys that were generational talents were orr, harvey, lindstrom, bourque. there is no way anyone leaves them out of the top 10.

the next big names (2 or 3 time winners) are pierre pilote, potvin, coffey, chelios, leech, robinson and langway. langway was a stay at home guy, so he lacks the scoring numbers on this list so he may not be a shoe in at the top 10 like the rest of these guys.

If you make the norris the best gauge, you cannot list a non multiple norris winner on the list since there are 10 guys with at least 2.

my top 10:
1. orr
2. bourque
3. harvey,
4. langway
5.lindstrom
6.coffey
7. potvin
8. chelios
9. leech
10. pilote

so in my eyes he is in the conversation, but with only 1 norris, he was never as good as lidstrom during his era and overall chara, mcinnins, stevens, robinson and doug wilson would also be there. if i kept listing i think neids is 12th all time in my eyes

[ForsbergnSakic]

I'd put stevens, Bourque above him all time, and Rob Blake right next to him. I'm also heavily biased, so I'd put Adam Foote above him.. though I'd be the only one <,<

[93213]

Whoa! Why has there been no mention of Aki Berg??!!

I think Scott fits somewhere between 8 and 12th. It's really hard to judge since I never watched so many of the "greats". One thing is for sure, he's a top ten in my lifetime.

[fungchen3]

Scotty is just outside of my personal top 10:

1. Orr
2. Potvin
3. Lidstrom
4. Bourque
5. Harvey
6. Shore
7. Robinson
8. Fetisov
9. Chelios
10. Pronger

Others: Coffey, Park, Langway, Stevens, Niedermayer, Savard, Leetch, Pilote, Salming, etc.

[notoriousjim]

pronger gets more love than i would have thought, he does have 6 all star appearances, 1 hart and 1 norris, but only 686 points, well below most of the 950-1000 range most of the other big scoring D have gotten. 62 points was his high, when most of the other top 10 guys have at least 1 season north of 80, and guys like coffey have a few 100 point seasons. not to say he is not top 20, but i find it hard to put him in the top 10 and leave off better scorers like coffey, and better stay at home guys like langway

[ross10019]

For sure he's top 10. He has won every major team championship that there is to win, and pretty much was the one or two best players on all those teams (i.e., they likely wouldn't have won without him imo). And that performance in Olympics 2010 as a what, 37 year old? Just amazing. No way I would put guys like Stevens, Pronger or Chelios, or even Leech, ahead of him, just no way.

[dyzfunctioned]

pronger gets more love than i would have thought, he does have 6 all star appearances, 1 hart and 1 norris, but only 686 points, well below most of the 950-1000 range most of the other big scoring D have gotten. 62 points was his high, when most of the other top 10 guys have at least 1 season north of 80, and guys like coffey have a few 100 point seasons. not to say he is not top 20, but i find it hard to put him in the top 10 and leave off better scorers like coffey, and better stay at home guys like langway

Only d-man to win the hart since Orr. Is there really anything else to say?

Not to mention virtually every team he's played for has been a playoff team, even if they weren't before (see Oilers, to a lesser extent the Anaheim team that went on to win the cup...).

[fungchen3]

Only d-man to win the hart since Orr. Is there really anything else to say?

Not to mention virtually every team he's played for has been a playoff team, even if they weren't before (see Oilers, to a lesser extent the Anaheim team that went on to win the cup...).

Yeah, Pronger is top 10 without a doubt. Even if we put the hardware and accolades to the side for a moment, Pronger's nastiness, reach, size and offensive ability make him an all-around monster. Unfortunately, the intangibles that guys like Pronger, Stevens, Potvin and Shore brought to the table often get overlooked because they don't show up on a stat sheet in the history books.

I consider Potvin the 2nd greatest all-around defenseman ever because of those intangibles. Potvin's offensive game could hang with anyone not named Orr or Bourque and his physical game was only rivaled by a few. As nasty as Shore, Chelios, Pronger and Robinson were...Scott Stevens is the only one that came close to actually "scaring" the opposition the way Potvin did.

Denis Potvin crushed the will of his opponents. If you didn't have the heart of a lion and weren't willing to spend the next day in an ice bath, Potvin made you a complete non-factor. Pronger and Chelios are cut from the same cloth but Potvin hit a million times harder than either of them.

[sexymountain]

pronger gets more love than i would have thought, he does have 6 all star appearances, 1 hart and 1 norris, but only 686 points, well below most of the 950-1000 range most of the other big scoring D have gotten. 62 points was his high, when most of the other top 10 guys have at least 1 season north of 80, and guys like coffey have a few 100 point seasons. not to say he is not top 20, but i find it hard to put him in the top 10 and leave off better scorers like coffey, and better stay at home guys like langway

Pronger leading a mediocre Edmonton Oilers to the Finals is what gets him so much love from me. and the Hart. He's for sure top 10 in a post Original Six Era.

[bigbabybuda]

Scotty is just outside of my personal top 10:

1. Orr
2. Potvin
3. Lidstrom
4. Bourque
5. Harvey
6. Shore
7. Robinson
8. Fetisov
9. Chelios
10. Pronger

Others: Coffey, Park, Langway, Stevens, Niedermayer, Savard, Leetch, Pilote, Salming, etc.

Great list fung! Here's mine. It's very similar, but I don't have Stevens in my top 25 probably. Always thought he was a little over rated.

Orr
Lidstrom (Never even had 1 Norris before he was 30. Considering his longevity I almost put him 1st
Shore
Potvin
Fetisov
Harvey
Bourque
Robinson
Savard
Coffey

Just missed: Pronger,Niedermayer, Chelios, , Salming, Pilote, Leetch, Clancy, Park

Keep flip/Flopping between Orr and Lidstrom. I guess it has to be Orr

[Rylant]

He might be close, but I don't think that he is in my top 10 of all time. He is 23rd all time for points for a defenseman with 740 points in 1263 games. Points alone puts 22 people ahead of him including people like Mark Howe, Steve Duchesne and Sergei Zubov. I was an Oiler fan growing up and was just getting into hockey as the Islanders were winning all of their cups paving the way for a lot of good Oiler Memories. I was able to watch Denis Potvin, and the funny thing is, that as a 12 or 13 year old boy just starting to really enjoy hockey and the way the Islanders played, it wasn't Mike Bossy or Trottier or even a young LaFontaine who grabbed my attention, it was Denis Potvin.

I also wouldn't include Paul Coffey in my list of top 10 defensemen... Yes he was amazing, but he never should have won a Norris Trophy if you ask me... just not a good all around defenseman; he was a great offensive threat.

One person who I think often gets overlooked in these lists is Larry Murphy. Murphy was 5th all time for defensemen with 1216 point in his career, and not a single person has even mentioned him; not even an honourable mention.

Sadly, people like Harvey, Shore and Red Kelly played in a time out of sight for me, and so all I can really do is look at stats for people like them. Even Bobby Orr is a few highlights and a boatload of stats for me. The really impressive stat for me about Orr is that he had 915 points which is good for 11th all time by a defenseman... Oh, but he only played 657 games.

Rylant

[bigbabybuda]

He might be close, but I don't think that he is in my top 10 of all time. He is 23rd all time for points for a defenseman with 740 points in 1263 games. Points alone puts 22 people ahead of him including people like Mark Howe, Steve Duchesne and Sergei Zubov. I was an Oiler fan growing up and was just getting into hockey as the Islanders were winning all of their cups paving the way for a lot of good Oiler Memories. I was able to watch Denis Potvin, and the funny thing is, that as a 12 or 13 year old boy just starting to really enjoy hockey and the way the Islanders played, it wasn't Mike Bossy or Trottier or even a young LaFontaine who grabbed my attention, it was Denis Potvin.

I also wouldn't include Paul Coffey in my list of top 10 defensemen... Yes he was amazing, but he never should have won a Norris Trophy if you ask me... just not a good all around defenseman; he was a great offensive threat.

One person who I think often gets overlooked in these lists is Larry Murphy. Murphy was 5th all time for defensemen with 1216 point in his career, and not a single person has even mentioned him; not even an honourable mention.

Sadly, people like Harvey, Shore and Red Kelly played in a time out of sight for me, and so all I can really do is look at stats for people like them. Even Bobby Orr is a few highlights and a boatload of stats for me. The really impressive stat for me about Orr is that he had 915 points which is good for 11th all time by a defenseman... Oh, but he only played 657 games.

Rylant

You know what? I completely forgot about Murphy/ Despite his points I still wouldn't of had him top 10 but HM for sure. Coffey I didn't have in, had Pronger but his points and his skating made me switch. I prefer him in.

Great post Rylant!