"Business Ethics"

[Two On One]

So I've got mixed feelings about this, so here it goes...

I play in a semi-competitive 12 team league. Many of the GMs who are in it, I don't know personally, but they're from around area I live in. They are tough cookies who are certainly in it to win it. Meanwhile, over the past couple years, I've managed to get a few co-workers/friends involved in the league and we're all having a good time.

One of those co-workers that joined just this year is a "casual" hockey fan who wanted to try this whole fantasy hockey thing out. He's a good honest guy who doesn't quite know as much as I and the other co-workers do about the NHL.

Anyway, I'm finding myself now in trade talks with him as he needs a LW and I need a goalie. As far as trade partner needs, it makes sense... But I feel like that I'm really about to fleece him... and unfairly so.

For example, he looks at his own goalies (Luongo, Price, Roloson and Elliot) as equals even though he drafted Bobby Lu and Price towards the top. Since they all have similar records right now, they're all just as valuable in his eyes, regardless of what they can do by the end of the season. If anything, he thinks Elliot is his #1 goalie since he's been killing it in the early going.

I guess I can't help to feel bad here. Like a lion ready to devour a baby bunny, but with a conscience. Have you ever gotten into a situation like this? Do you feel remorse for taking advantage of those who aren't as fantasy savy? Do you try to make the trade as even as possible for a rookie, even though you could take more? Or maybe you just rip him a new one so he learns from it?

Again, he's a good natured guy... I don't think he'd be mad at me months later when his team goes down like a wounded battleship. But still... Thoughts?

[smoothfun]

I think you should be honest and explain the values of the players involved in any trades you make with your friend or/and tell him to look at his players career stats to give him a better idea of players values.After that , you know you can still deal and come out on top just because of his lack of knowledge of the fantasy hockey "game".

[Old_Smokie]

I totally agree, I take it easy on people like that. I try and offer all the advice I can on the proper value of there players. Hell I even helped one guy out with a FA pickup I was going to grab myself. I like things to be competitive.

[Two On One]

I think you should be honest and explain the values of the players involved in any trades you make with your friend or/and tell him to look at his players career stats to give him a better idea of players values.After that , you know you can still deal and come out on top just because of his lack of knowledge of the fantasy hockey "game".

Yeah we talked this morning and I told him to look at each goalies stats over the past few years... Not just the past 30 days. Hopefully he'll understand that Price is gonna play a ton, where as Elliot will only get lots of games if Halak doesn't give Hitch a reason to play him...

[Chili con Carne]

Wholeheartedly agree - tell him to look at the career stats and make sure he at least knows that Lou and Price are a pedigree above the other two and in better situations. Keep in mind that you are also helping him from getting fleeced by other managers in doing so and maintaining the integrity of the league (whether you end up trading with him or not).

At the end of it though, if you are honest with him and he still wants to move forward then you can not be faulted for taking a trade/deal.

I am constantly discussing advice with other managers in our league - how we can each improve their teams etc.....Currently trying to keep one manager from doing something rash with Luongo right now.

[horrorfan]

I wouldn't enjoy purposely fleecing someone that I know, just to get the better of a deal. In the end, it's for fun and I would want everyone else enjoying it as much as me. Especially because he's new and a friend, I wouldn't take advantage of him. I would try to help out a bit and formulate a deal that would be helpful for both sides, making him aware of the value involved. That way, he will improve his knowledge.

[Two On One]

I wouldn't enjoy purposely fleecing someone that I know, just to get the better of a deal. In the end, it's for fun and I would want everyone else enjoying it as much as me. Especially because he's new and a friend, I wouldn't take advantage of him. I would try to help out a bit and formulate a deal that would be helpful for both sides, making him aware of the value involved. That way, he will improve his knowledge.

This is my thought too. Taking advantage of a guy like this doesn't encourage him to come back and play the next season... especially if the trade leaves a bitter taste in his mouth. Even though I doubt it wouldn't bother him too badly, I would have to live with that one for a while...

[Leumas]

While everyone wants to be on the winning side of a deal a total fleecing is going to hurt the entire league. You will piss everyone off and people will be calling for this new guy's head. There will be accusations and questions as to why this guy is even in the league in the first place if he doesn't know what he is doing. Ask me how I know this.....lol.

Anyhow it's not a good situation and actually hurts you in some ways as well. Since there are other GM's that you don't know well, you may be seen as a bad guy and that will hurt any future deals you are trying to make as well.

Maybe you should show him Elliott's losing streak last year. (One win in 21 starts.) Really try to hammer home just how fast player values can change in this game.

Another thing to consider...

The first couple seasons in my league there were only a small portion of GM's who knew about this website. In some cases there were huge discrepancies in player values. A certified "Dobber stud" was an absolute nobody in some GM's minds and vice versa. It was frustrating if you were trying to trade one of these guys and couldn't get anything for him. On the other hand you can see how easily a toxic situation like yours above could occur and really hurt the league.

Eventually more and more GM's found out about Dobber and the playing field is more even. At one point last year I (as commish) let the cat out of the bag and posted some Dobber stuff on our site. I received a lot of criticism for doing so at the time because many guys felt they had this big secret over everyone else. As it turns out I believe it has actually made our league stronger and trade talks more even and realistic.

If you spend enough time here you realize that the opinions of player values change very rapidly too. However at least everyone in the league has a starting point and a solid reference they can turn to if they wish to use it.

If I was you I'd give him the heads up about Dobberhockey and I think you will find that although you'll have a more competitive manager to go against you will also have a lot more fun doing so.

Good luck

[Pengwin7]

That is good stuff that you have a fantasy hockey conscience. Thumbs up!

Step 1: Tell him to put all of his goalies "On the Block" in your league. Tell him to add a message that also mentions he is looking for a LW. I assume your league has a trade block somewhere. This is of utmost importance because he is YOUR buddy. You may be able to swing a fair trade with him... the more detrimental part will be the league's "feeling" on this situation of "him helping you".

Step 2: Wait a few weeks. He'll have collected some offers. There is nothing wrong (IMO) with him telling you what he's been offered.

Step 3: Offer him something that is at least CLOSE to his best offer. It doesn't have to be better - but you have to prepare for the league backlash of somebody saying "Hey - I offered So-N-So" or "Hey - I would have given So-N-So".


If this guy had been in the league for a year+... then I think the two of you could do direct-trade-talks without him needing to issue a "Trade Block".

But, with him being your buddy - his first trade needs to show an effort to give everybody in the league a shot.

Summary:
Everybody in the league needs a shot at him for his first trade. This is a key.
The actual trade can end up being you-and-him... but everybody needs to feel they had a shot.

[ericdaoust]

One of the reasons why I understand commishes that want to veto certain trades is this concept of fleecing someone for their talent. Sure, it is (most of the time) done with the best intentions but when a trade like this happens the balance of power in the league is severely shifted in one trade and often times the "victim" ends up quitting the league eventually anyway. Then the commish is stuck finding a replacement for a doormat team.

Back to the topic, I think you should show some restraint here. The co-worker is basically your guest in the league (since you invited him) and if you rape his team of real talent it will not only shift the balance of power in a big way, it will also reflect poorly on you.

[Leftwall]

The perverse danger here is that Elliott locks down the starters job in St Louis and Luongo struggles all season and at the end of the season, your buddy says, "Man, I don't know why I let you talk me into Elliott over Luongo."

Why not just make an offer that is value for value? That has integrity. I think sometimes we get confused between winning a trade and improving our team.

[Flyer Fan]

Reading your post it reminds me of a scene in the movie "Open Range" where Robert Duvall's character tells a young man "a man's trust is a valuable thing, ...you don't want to lose it over a hand of cards"

Your answer to your own question shows that same kind of wisdom.

[Old_Smokie]

I'm so glad our league hands out a 50 dollar prize and inscribed trophy to the GM of the year (voted by all GMs). A great incentive for GMs to help out and act with integrity. It's not always about winning.

[No Regretzkys]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRT62J80iyI

I just had to lol

[Two On One]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRT62J80iyI

Haha - I thought of that same scene when I typed up the title... Good flick!