Four types of Fantasy Players to Avoid

[mister_mcgoo]

I think you're being far too harsh on Mike's original post Shoeless. I thought the whole purpose of these forums was to share different perspectives on fantasy hockey, not just for everyone to tow the official Dobber-nation line and keep regurgitating the same numbers and opinions they get from the guide (not that the guide isn't great, it is, but its far from infallible). I don't think we gain anything from that, I think we gain far more thru open and honest discussion on the players, the teams and the game, and get to read the different arguments and points of view. In the case of this article, if you don't agree with it then I think that presents an excellent opportunity for rebuttal

To use your Heatley example, Dobber had him pegged for 81 pts last year...well he scored 64 instead and got his ass shipped out of town with 3 years still left on his contract, that's called a big swing and a miss. IMO, Heater is a selfish, often lazy sniper who doesn't mesh well with his teammates and eventually becomes a cancer to whatever team signs him...plus his point totals have been steadily in decline as a result (105, 82, 72, 82, 64). I think he's an excellent candidate to avoid...let someone else gamble on him returning to fantasy relevance while I snatch up the quality alternatives.

As far as the level of user these articles should target, I don't believe you accomplish much of anything by 'dumbing it down' or oversimplifying, often a sink or swim approach can be much more effective anyway. Where I do agree with you is with the notion that perhaps the site as a whole would benefit from some separation in this matter. Its seems like a couple of stickies for 'noob' fantasy hockey GMs would be a good idea. For example horrorfan has written some great pieces on how to approach the various leagues types (H2H vs Roto vs Pts, etc) that is chalk full of good advice for the uninitiated, maybe that's a good place to start?

[TheRook]

Shoeless, i agree with you but from a different perspective or maybe we share the same.

I think the articles and information shared need to be at an advanced level but written to the novice user's understanding. The more advanced the subject matters the faster the novice will increase their knowledge. If the subject matter is written so sophisticated that it is above their heads it forces them to detract from the subject and afraid to ask questions for fear of stating their ignorance. If the topics are at the novice level then they gain understanding but they dont obtain growth.

Kinda like the saying "dont dress for the job your in, but for the job you want". If i truly want to grow in a subject, i will look for articles that challenge me to question my way of thinking and look at things from different perspectives. There are times i want something to reinforce what i already know (justifies the value of what i am thinking) but most times i want an article to push me to go further than where i am at.

I have written internal training material on software communication the last couple years and there are a few things i have learned.

• The writings have to be clear and specific.

• You cant assume your reader will understand your point of view, you have to state it.

• Be detailed as possible so your statements cant be misunderstood or taken out of context.

Its not easy writing topics that are challenging to the expert but clear to the novice. I applaud the contributors at this site as most are able to succeed. I enjoy the pieces the most that dont slant the topic one way or the other, but provide information, facts and opinion that allow me to make my own decisions.

If i could ask one thing for the writings is to state what type of league is the information suggested. i dont want to assume its for a points only league, maybe i should, but the value of players differ greatly between the different league types. To use this article as an example, a pure goal scorer like Nash or Carter has great value in multi cat leagues that include G, PPG, GWG, SOG, but maybe not as good of value in points only. i think the reader needs to know the league type the article is based on in the beginning so they know how to evaluate the subject matter to their league setups.

[ericdaoust]

I think wording is everything. Dany Heatley and Rick Nash are guys that are very fantasy relevant but also incorrectly slotted in the minds of most "casual" poolies. I believe this is the message of the article but to some it could be interpreted differently. Heatley's 64 points and Nash's 66 points still definitely have their place in fantasy hockey.

[Shoeless]

I think you're being far too harsh on Mike's original post Shoeless. I thought the whole purpose of these forums was to share different perspectives on fantasy hockey, not just for everyone to tow the official Dobber-nation line and keep regurgitating the same numbers and opinions they get from the guide (not that the guide isn't great, it is, but its far from infallible). I don't think we gain anything from that, I think we gain far more thru open and honest discussion on the players, the teams and the game, and get to read the different arguments and points of view. In the case of this article, if you don't agree with it then I think that presents an excellent opportunity for rebuttal

To use your Heatley example, Dobber had him pegged for 81 pts last year...well he scored 64 instead and got his ass shipped out of town with 3 years still left on his contract, that's called a big swing and a miss. IMO, Heater is a selfish, often lazy sniper who doesn't mesh well with his teammates and eventually becomes a cancer to whatever team signs him...plus his point totals have been steadily in decline as a result (105, 82, 72, 82, 64). I think he's an excellent candidate to avoid...let someone else gamble on him returning to fantasy relevance while I snatch up the quality alternatives.

As far as the level of user these articles should target, I don't believe you accomplish much of anything by 'dumbing it down' or oversimplifying, often a sink or swim approach can be much more effective anyway. Where I do agree with you is with the notion that perhaps the site as a whole would benefit from some separation in this matter. Its seems like a couple of stickies for 'noob' fantasy hockey GMs would be a good idea. For example horrorfan has written some great pieces on how to approach the various leagues types (H2H vs Roto vs Pts, etc) that is chalk full of good advice for the uninitiated, maybe that's a good place to start?

and now Heatley no longer has fantasy relevance. Yep, the very same Heatley who last season was top 35 in points, had a better +/-, more PIM's, more hits and blocks, more PPP's, and more SOG than Patrick Kane. Beam me up Scotty, I have lost touch with reality as I know it.

[Nieuwendyk]

I have to defend shoeless here.

Positives
Words of positive. The flow was good and there was definitely a consistent theme throughout. You had a point and, bam, bam, bam, you got your point across. I give kudos to that as that is a basic element that some writers miss.

Use of words
The initial point that everybody notices is to be more attentive of the wording. To massage words comes with both practice and reading of various material. Don't get beat down on this point because I struggle with this all the time. I'm in the profession that frowns upon cheating/theft so you have to be careful when talking about (or accusing) as there is a different perception between "there appears" to be something bad going on vs. "there is" something bad going on. shoeless touched on this with the naming of the title.

Alternatives/Recommendations
The advice that I want to consolidate (and fully agree with shoeless, but not with the paragraph long rant because that was a lot of reading) right now is the power of alternatives. shoeless was bang on when he said that this article would be great if there was a notion of comparative value. This is a bang for your buck comment that kind of got lost in translation.

After each header, a player or two are pointed out to avoid and you explain why, but so what? What was missing in my mind was if I am to avoid him, where would be the best spot to nab him? Who else would be better to get?

I loved your Giroux comments as I have the same concern, but who could I nab in place of him or where would you take Girioux in a draft? Okay, so we are on the same page because we both have concerns about Giroux and you grabbed my attention, but so what? Alternatives. Recommendations. Get me thinking what else is out there because that is what I value, your opinion and support for that opinion.

Overall, the article is decent, but I came out with no gained knowledge to adjust my team, but more concerns as I have a handful of your mentioned players on my teams.

[mister_mcgoo]

and now Heatley no longer has fantasy relevance. Yep, the very same Heatley who last season was top 35 in points, had a better +/-, more PIM's, more hits and blocks, more PPP's, and more SOG than Patrick Kane. Beam me up Scotty, I have lost touch with reality as I know it.

dude wtf are you talking about? I certainly never said he had become 'fantasy irrelevant' and neither did the OP! Did you read his whole post carefully or just sorta skim it because like I said initially I think you were pretty harsh with your judgment...here is all he said about Heater:

Dany Heatley for example. He is going to be a different type of player in Minnesota then he was in San Jose, and he was a different player in San Jose then he was in Ottawa or Atlanta. Many times a players best season is often frozen in time and thats the way we view that player. Is Dany Heatley a 50 goal scorer like he accomplished for two seasons in Ottawa? Or were those two seasons a product of all the stars aligning just right and is he actually more of a realistic 35-40 goal man?

and

Another guy to watch out for is the aforementioned Dany Heatley. His production was already slipping but now without Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau to play with, it may drop off even more.

I see speculation, I see him expressing his opinion on Heatley's recent decline (and it IS a decline, numbers don't lie) but nowhere do I read anything from him (or me for that matter) that says that he has no fantasy relevance, that would be absurd. The point the OP was trying to convey was that most fantasy GMs (perhaps yourself included) still value him as a 90 pt threat, so the advice is to let them do so whilst snapping up better options

[Shoeless]

dude wtf are you talking about?

Talking about this: let someone else gamble on him returning to fantasy relevance while I snatch up the quality alternatives.

You have to leave fantasy relevance to be able to return, McGoo.

[mister_mcgoo]

Talking about this: let someone else gamble on him returning to fantasy relevance while I snatch up the quality alternatives.

You have to leave fantasy relevance to be able to return, McGoo.

hahaha, ok you got me, I totally did not remember phrasing it that way! the freaking heat is obviously melting my brain this afternoon, apologies for the confusion

ok so allow me to rephrase since I concede 100% that that was poorly worded...

let someone else gamble on him returning to the type of fantasy relevance most GMs EXPECT of Heatley while I snatch up the quality alternatives

[Shoeless]

hahaha, ok you got me, I totally did not remember phrasing it that way! the freaking heat is obviously melting my brain this afternoon, apologies for the confusion

ok so allow me to rephrase since I concede 100% that that was poorly worded...

let someone else gamble on him returning to the type of fantasy relevance most GMs EXPECT of Heatley while I snatch up the quality alternatives

I think that is pretty good advice and think that is where Mike is going as well. Frankly I don't see Heatley dropping in most drafts to a point where he is on value and worth taking so I don't think I will be his owner this year. I am ranking him near 50 as a pick considering both skaters and goalies. He could fool us but it would take a mysterious turn around.

[ericdaoust]

I think that is pretty good advice and think that is where Mike is going as well. Frankly I don't see Heatley dropping in most drafts to a point where he is on value and worth taking so I don't think I will be his owner this year. I am ranking him near 50 as a pick considering both skaters and goalies. He could fool us but it would take a mysterious turn around.

I don't think he'll magically find his scoring touch in Minnesota which is likely to be a losing environment.

[Loch]

I don't think he'll magically find his scoring touch in Minnesota which is likely to be a losing environment.

Has anyone ever 'magically found their scoring touch' in Minnesota? I'll even throw that open to the North Star days.


In regards to the more general themes of discussion I say: "Welcome to the deep end kids, it is sink or swim time!"... but then again, I'm not particularly nice or helpful... or knowledgeable... or well spoken. What was my point again?