Eastern Conference: (2) Capitals vs. (4) Penguins

[lanky]

nazkev83 wrote:

I think this series comes down to the one or two times per game where AO decides he\'s too \"Great\" to get back and play any sort of defense. A breakout goal here or there for the Pens wins them the series in 7.

I don\'t recall the last time I watched the caps and Ovechkin decided \"he\'s too Great to get back and play any sort of defense.\"

Actually, for that matter... he made some tremendous defensive plays against the rangers that realistically saved goals.

the caps aren\'t without their defensive hiccups but i don\'t remember one defensive breakdown that occured because ovechkin wasn\'t playing hard enough.

nazkev83 wrote:

(Side note: Nothing against AO here as a dynamic offensive player and prolific goal scorer... I just think that Malkin has more of a \"whatever it takes for my team to win\" sort of mentality that will carry the Pens to the Eastern finals.)

have you actually seen ovechkin play hockey? just curious, because this along with your first comment seems to suggest that you just might not be exposed to very much caps hockey.

I wouldn\'t say that there\'s a player in the league that has more of a \"whatever it takes for my team to win\" ideology than Ovechkin.

If he isn\'t scoring goals, he throws hits... if he\'s not throwing hits, he\'s making nice passes... if he\'s not making nice passes, he\'s creating space for his teammates to work with... if his team doesn\'t have the puck, he\'s stealing it in the neutral zone.

At several points in the series against the rangers, Ovechkin was the guy screening the goalie in front of the net. He goes into the high traffic areas... he\'s can play the game as a passer, as a banger, as a power forward, or as a shifty guy with a great wrist shot.

I wouldn\'t even put malkin in the same category as ovechkin in terms of his \"whatever it takes for my team to win\" mentality... unless of course doing \"whatever it takes for [his] team to win\" involves passing the puck a lot and losing a lot of faceoffs.

-----

Don\'t get me wrong... Malkin is great in his own right, but I just think you\'re making assumptions perhaps about ovechkin. He is not Ilya Kovalchuk cerca 2003-04. Ovechkin is a really hard worker whenever he\'s on the ice.

If anything the only knock on his game in this respect that I could make is that he sometimes tries too hard to make things happen... and he sometimes stays on the ice for longer shifts than he probably should...

But to suggest that anyone in the league works harder than him or cares more about his team winning than he does is pretty inaccurate.

This is a guy that is just as excited about his teammates scoring goals as he is about himself scoring goals. He\'s a team player in the truest sense of the word. That\'s a large part of why his teammates like him so much, and a large part of the capitals success as a team.

[roncool11]

It\'s Circa not cerca. And I think it\'s pretty presumptuous to say that AO (Whole I think is great but not sure if he\'s the best) \"cares\" more about winning than anyone else in the entire NHL. Just seems like an argument based on nothing but the fact that he smiles a lot when he/others score, that doesn\'t make you \"care\" more than others.

Also I\'m not saying AO is defensively incompetent, but to me at least it\'s pretty obvious that defensively Crosby&Malkin > Ovechkin. Sure AO hits but defense is a lot more than hitting, look at Datsyuk.

I admire Ovechkin I think he\'s the funnest to watch but I have a hard time believing here\'s better than Malkin and Crosby. Malkin and Crosby are better defensively, althpugh Malkin\'s faceoffs are lacking. Crosby has a higher ppg average for his career than Ovechkin and Malkin. Also I could score maybe a few goals on an NHL goalie if I took that amount of shots. Malkin has a MUCH higher shooting % than Ocehckin which leads me to believe he takes smarter shots and knows when he should pass instead (his 70+ assists reinforce that thought).

Both Malkin\'s and Ovechkin\'s breakout seasons came at 22, Crosby hasn\'t reached that age yet so he seems to have the more room for advancement. My personal Bias seems to be towards Malkin but that\'s mostly due to me feeling the need to stick up for him because he goes mostly unnoticed mainstream, well at least more unnoticed then he should.

[playmaker26]

I\'m going to take the Penguins in 6 in the series. I\'ll have a little write-up posted on JR\'s blog. Link is in my signature if anybody is interested in reading it.

[Dakkster]

I have a feeling Laich will be a big player in this series. Tyler Kennedy too.

[playmaker26]

sentium wrote:

I have a feeling Laich will be a big player in this series. Tyler Kennedy too.

Tyler Kennedy really impressed me in that first round against the Flyers. Very smart player and the perfect guy to play with Staal. Not for fantasy value but for actual hockey.

[lanky]

roncool11 wrote:

Also I\'m not saying AO is defensively incompetent, but to me at least it\'s pretty obvious that defensively Crosby&Malkin > Ovechkin. Sure AO hits but defense is a lot more than hitting, look at Datsyuk.

um... this is apples to oranges though. you can\'t say that centers are more defensively responsible than a wing... because... well... that\'s their job. Center\'s are supposed to be more defensively responsible than wings.

I hate it when people say that ovechkin isn\'t as \"complete\" a player because he\'s not a good defensively as CENTERS, crosby, malkin, datsyuk. It\'s. not. his. job.

I mean, hell... you know what? Datsyuk just isn\'t a complete player, because he\'s not as defensively responsible as Zdeno Chara. Furthermore, Chara isn\'t a complete player, because he\'s not as defensively responsible as Roberto Luongo. Oh and you know what? Roberto Luongo isn\'t a complete player because he doesn\'t score as much as Alex Ovechkin.

I get so tired of the \"defensively responsible\" comparison crap.

roncool11 wrote:

Also I could score maybe a few goals on an NHL goalie if I took that amount of shots. Malkin has a MUCH higher shooting % than Ovechkin which leads me to believe he takes smarter shots and knows when he should pass instead (his 70+ assists reinforce that thought).

\"MUCH higher?\" 1.5 percent is \"MUCH higher\" in your books? Apparently haven\'t studied much statistics or mathematics. Either that or your definition of \"MUCH\" is just incorrect.

regardless... people seem to think that it\'s just as easy as breathing for players to take 500+ shots a season. As good as malkin is, i challenge him to even try. It takes an amazing skill set to get that many shots ON GOAL when everyone on the opposing team is specifically trying to keep you from shooting.

The fact that Malkin \"knows when he should pass\" is exactly why in my initial post, i said that he doesn\'t have the same game-breaking ability. You don\'t break a game with a pass... because passes depend on your team mates being able to score. You do break games with shots on goals though... because... well... shots on goal is how you score.

Malkin\'s 70+ assists are nice... but i\'d be interested to see how many of those are secondary assists (ie he didn\'t even make the pass that the goal was scored on).

Again... as with my first post... i\'m not discrediting anything that malkin does... I just don\'t think that making passes, that are then passed again, or losing faceoffs is really the definition of \"doing whatever it takes to win.\"

roncool11 wrote:

Both Malkin\'s and Ovechkin\'s breakout seasons came at 22, Crosby hasn\'t reached that age yet so he seems to have the more room for advancement. My personal Bias seems to be towards Malkin but that\'s mostly due to me feeling the need to stick up for him because he goes mostly unnoticed mainstream, well at least more unnoticed then he should.

Firstly. I\'m not sure why you bring crosby up in this post. I didn\'t address crosby at all. In my first post i merely reacted to somebody who said that malkin has more of a \"whatever it takes for my team to win\" sort of mentality. Neither of those posts really talked about crosby at all... so introducing him at any point now isn\'t really appropriate.

Secondly. Ovechkin had 52 goals and 106 points in his rookie year when he was 20. Malkin had 47 goals and 106 points when he was 22. I\'m not sure how it\'s possible that you can conciously claim that they \"broke out\" at the same age.

Thirdly. I notice Malkin just fine. I give him all credit where it\'s due. But he simply put does not \"take over a game\" as easily as Ovechkin does. It\'s not really his fault per say... Malkin is tremendous and makes amazing plays, but as long as you rely on someone else to finish and score, there\'s more human error involved.

Ovechkin can score goals with 3/4 guys hanging off him or in his wake.

Ovechkin can paint even the biggest of players to the boards.

Ovechkin can screen the opposing goalie with his size and get trash rebounds and deflections with his skill.

These are things that that you cannot say about any other player in the league in my opinion. Not a single one. That was my point. I wasn\'t underappreciating malkin (and certainly not crosby, as i didn\'t even mention crosby\'s name). I was just saying that as far as the \"whatever it takes for his team to win\" statement, ovechkin is probably the more appropriate recipiant... as there\'s really nothing that he\'s responsible for that he doesn\'t do with 100% effort and the utmost efficiency.

The fact that malkin doesn\'t really win faceoffs as a center, leads me to beleive that he cannot do \"whatever it takes for his team to win.\" Because, quite frankly... winning faceoffs helps your team win... as does shooting as much as ovechkin. Niether thing is something that malkin does regularly.

[playmaker26]

lanky wrote:

roncool11 wrote:

Also I\'m not saying AO is defensively incompetent, but to me at least it\'s pretty obvious that defensively Crosby&Malkin > Ovechkin. Sure AO hits but defense is a lot more than hitting, look at Datsyuk.

um... this is apples to oranges though. you can\'t say that centers are more defensively responsible than a wing... because... well... that\'s their job. Center\'s are supposed to be more defensively responsible than wings.

I hate it when people say that ovechkin isn\'t as \"complete\" a player because he\'s not a good defensively as CENTERS, crosby, malkin, datsyuk. It\'s. not. his. job.

I mean, hell... you know what? Datsyuk just isn\'t a complete player, because he\'s not as defensively responsible as Zdeno Chara. Furthermore, Chara isn\'t a complete player, because he\'s not as defensively responsible as Roberto Luongo. Oh and you know what? Roberto Luongo isn\'t a complete player because he doesn\'t score as much as Alex Ovechkin.

I get so tired of the \"defensively responsible\" comparison crap.

roncool11 wrote:

Also I could score maybe a few goals on an NHL goalie if I took that amount of shots. Malkin has a MUCH higher shooting % than Ovechkin which leads me to believe he takes smarter shots and knows when he should pass instead (his 70+ assists reinforce that thought).

\"MUCH higher?\" 1.5 percent is \"MUCH higher\" in your books? Apparently haven\'t studied much statistics or mathematics. Either that or your definition of \"MUCH\" is just incorrect.

regardless... people seem to think that it\'s just as easy as breathing for players to take 500+ shots a season. As good as malkin is, i challenge him to even try. It takes an amazing skill set to get that many shots ON GOAL when everyone on the opposing team is specifically trying to keep you from shooting.

The fact that Malkin \"knows when he should pass\" is exactly why in my initial post, i said that he doesn\'t have the same game-breaking ability. You don\'t break a game with a pass... because passes depend on your team mates being able to score. You do break games with shots on goals though... because... well... shots on goal is how you score.

Malkin\'s 70+ assists are nice... but i\'d be interested to see how many of those are secondary assists (ie he didn\'t even make the pass that the goal was scored on).

Again... as with my first post... i\'m not discrediting anything that malkin does... I just don\'t think that making passes, that are then passed again, or losing faceoffs is really the definition of \"doing whatever it takes to win.\"

roncool11 wrote:

Both Malkin\'s and Ovechkin\'s breakout seasons came at 22, Crosby hasn\'t reached that age yet so he seems to have the more room for advancement. My personal Bias seems to be towards Malkin but that\'s mostly due to me feeling the need to stick up for him because he goes mostly unnoticed mainstream, well at least more unnoticed then he should.

Firstly. I\'m not sure why you bring crosby up in this post. I didn\'t address crosby at all. In my first post i merely reacted to somebody who said that malkin has more of a \"whatever it takes for my team to win\" sort of mentality. Neither of those posts really talked about crosby at all... so introducing him at any point now isn\'t really appropriate.

Secondly. Ovechkin had 52 goals and 106 points in his rookie year when he was 20. Malkin had 47 goals and 106 points when he was 22. I\'m not sure how it\'s possible that you can conciously claim that they \"broke out\" at the same age.

Thirdly. I notice Malkin just fine. I give him all credit where it\'s due. But he simply put does not \"take over a game\" as easily as Ovechkin does. It\'s not really his fault per say... Malkin is tremendous and makes amazing plays, but as long as you rely on someone else to finish and score, there\'s more human error involved.

Ovechkin can score goals with 3/4 guys hanging off him or in his wake.

Ovechkin can paint even the biggest of players to the boards.

Ovechkin can screen the opposing goalie with his size and get trash rebounds and deflections with his skill.

These are things that that you cannot say about any other player in the league in my opinion. Not a single one. That was my point. I wasn\'t underappreciating malkin (and certainly not crosby, as i didn\'t even mention crosby\'s name). I was just saying that as far as the \"whatever it takes for his team to win\" statement, ovechkin is probably the more appropriate recipiant... as there\'s really nothing that he\'s responsible for that he doesn\'t do with 100% effort and the utmost efficiency.

The fact that malkin doesn\'t really win faceoffs as a center, leads me to beleive that he cannot do \"whatever it takes for his team to win.\" Because, quite frankly... winning faceoffs helps your team win... as does shooting as much as ovechkin. Niether thing is something that malkin does regularly.

A player can be better defensively than another even if they play different FORWARD positions. I think Marian Hossa is better defensively than Malkin. Are you going to say they can\'t be compared since they play different positions?

I agree that centers have to be more responsible in their own end but to say you can\'t compare a wing to a center in terms of defensive play is inaccurate.

Obviously you can\'t compare someone like Chara to Datsyuk or any other forward. That argument makes no sense.

Good point on Malkin\'s secondary assists though...but the same can be said with Ovechkin. People always compare the big 3. Crosby gets by far the least amount of cheesy assists. By far.

[rticinelli]

NYR9394 wrote:

playmaker26 wrote:

NYR9394 wrote:

drury2396 wrote:

Well, we know what Bettman is waxin\' his carrot to tonight.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Gross, but funny as hell.


P.S. - Please change your log in name, it just sends rage through my body! That prick should not be mentioned in a positive light until he does something worth while.

I\'m not sure how you can bash Drury for this playoffs. He was clearly playing through great pain and him even being out there shows how much of a playoff guy he is. I\'d rather have him out there then have your captain not play in the most important part of the season. Just my opinion though.

Not at the detriment of the team. Then he\'s not a hero, but an idiot.

I\'m pretty sure he was the better option to Orr! :P

[rticinelli]

Pens in 6 for me.

I\'ve been reading up on the numerous Crosby vs. Ovechkin articles/comparisons that are floating around now, and never realized how one-sided in Sid\'s favor their head-to-head has been. Must really burn all those Ovechkin supporters!

[lanky]

playmaker26 wrote:

A player can be better defensively than another even if they play different FORWARD positions. I think Marian Hossa is better defensively than Malkin. Are you going to say they can\'t be compared since they play different positions?

I agree that centers have to be more responsible in their own end but to say you can\'t compare a wing to a center in terms of defensive play is inaccurate.

Obviously you can\'t compare someone like Chara to Datsyuk or any other forward. That argument makes no sense.

Good point on Malkin\'s secondary assists though...but the same can be said with Ovechkin. People always compare the big 3. Crosby gets by far the least amount of cheesy assists. By far.

good points... that post was really aimed at people that say that malkin is better than ovechkin because of his defensive aspects...

my point was that they both do what they\'re tasked with doing on defense. Centers are tasked with doing more on defense than wings...

that was pretty much the point i was trying to make. How can you fault either guy for doing exactly what they are tasked at doing? Neither goes above and beyond their responsibilities in the defensive end (like hossa or langenbruner, etc...) so I consider the defensive arguement to just be a wash.

[lanky]

rticinelli wrote:

Pens in 6 for me.

I\'ve been reading up on the numerous Crosby vs. Ovechkin articles/comparisons that are floating around now, and never realized how one-sided in Sid\'s favor their head-to-head has been. Must really burn all those Ovechkin supporters!

only ovechkin supporters that don\'t know anything about the capitals.

The pens made it to the playoffs a year before the caps... the pens return to glory has been pretty much a year ahead of the caps in every regard... so yeah... there were indeed a few seasons where ovechkin played against crosby, lemieux, recchi, gonchar, sykora, whitney, fleury, etc... when he had nothing more to help him than dainius zubrus and and an aging olaf kolzig.

The head-to-head between sid and ovechkin means nothing at this point... that is unless you want to use the head-to-head from this season? Where the caps went 3-0-1 against the pens... Oh you don\'t? hm... i can\'t imagine.

[playmaker26]

lanky wrote:

playmaker26 wrote:

A player can be better defensively than another even if they play different FORWARD positions. I think Marian Hossa is better defensively than Malkin. Are you going to say they can\'t be compared since they play different positions?

I agree that centers have to be more responsible in their own end but to say you can\'t compare a wing to a center in terms of defensive play is inaccurate.

Obviously you can\'t compare someone like Chara to Datsyuk or any other forward. That argument makes no sense.

Good point on Malkin\'s secondary assists though...but the same can be said with Ovechkin. People always compare the big 3. Crosby gets by far the least amount of cheesy assists. By far.

good points... that post was really aimed at people that say that malkin is better than ovechkin because of his defensive aspects...

my point was that they both do what they\'re tasked with doing on defense. Centers are tasked with doing more on defense than wings...

that was pretty much the point i was trying to make. How can you fault either guy for doing exactly what they are tasked at doing? Neither goes above and beyond their responsibilities in the defensive end (like hossa or langenbruner, etc...) so I consider the defensive arguement to just be a wash.

Haha ok.

[mister_mcgoo]

we should be able to settle a thing or two after tommorrow night...or actually probably not :lol: Well at least we\'ll see how they match up and who excels against who...will Malkin go into the playoff shnooze he did last year? Only time will tell

[roncool11]

I never once mentioned positions so I\'m not sure what your talking about, I was refering to pure Defensive skill and Malkin is above and beyond Ovechkin, Malkin is as someone said in another forum \"a Takeaway artist\", And to say that making a pass is bad is ridiculous, why should you should when your odds of YOUR TEAM, NOT YOU of scoring a goal increase by passing it to an open man. And when you consider Ovechkin took 500+ shots than a shooting percentage of 1.5% higher is pretty significant. It equals about 8 more goals. And to simply discount assists because \"they might be secondary\" is adsurd. Let\'s just randomly say everyone who gets alot more assists then goals is lucky and not really that skillful. Like you said yourself apples to oranges Malkin\'s a freaking center It\'s basically in his job description to set goals up. And I don\'t by this BS that Ovechkin is the hardest working player in the NHL, everyone works hard and their are probably 20+ less skilled players who make up for it with effort and try harder than AO. I don\'t know who\'s the better player out of the top 3 but at least I don\'t pretend to know.

[lanky]

I doubt this is really worth it... but oh well... why the hell? I\'ve got some time.

roncool11 wrote:

I never once mentioned positions so I\'m not sure what your talking about, I was refering to pure Defensive skill and Malkin is above and beyond Ovechkin, Malkin is as someone said in another forum \"a Takeaway artist.\"

... ???

Ovechkin is one of the best \"takeaway artists\" i\'ve seen in years. Again, not to discount Malkin\'s defensive play, but because Ovechkin is a wing, he pressures more on the forecheck in the neutral zone than the caps centers do. This often leads to turnovers and frequently, odd man rushes.

Anyways... is citing somebody else\'s opinion of Malkin\'s defensive play your way of covering your bases? \"I never said malkin was a takeaway artist!!\"

roncool11 wrote:

And to say that making a pass is bad is ridiculous, why should you should when your odds of YOUR TEAM, NOT YOU of scoring a goal increase by passing it to an open man.

when did i say making a pass was a bad thing? I said that making passes isn\'t often \"gamebreaking\" or \"taking over a game\" because it relies on other players.

This would be great if we were talking about \"teams\" taking over a game... but you can\'t talk about a \"player\" taking over a game with passes, because (quite simply put), passing the puck doesn\'t increase your team\'s score, shooting does.

Sooooo... i\'m not sure why you are trying to put words in my mouth.

roncool11 wrote:

And when you consider Ovechkin took 500+ shots than a shooting percentage of 1.5% higher is pretty significant. It equals about 8 more goals.

ok... but malkin didn\'t take 500+ shots. so... what\'s your point? If ovechkin had taken 1000+ shots, he\'d have more goals too. For that matter, if ovechkin played 30+ minutes a game, he\'d have more assists.

This is a just a silly arguement to me. Because malkin didn\'t have more shots... and if he did, his shooting percentage may have dropped and he probably wouldn\'t have 8 more goals than ovechkin.

And like i said before (which you seem to completely discount/disregard) is the fact that malkin will never be able to take 500+ shots in a year, because he doesn\'t have the same skillset and (dare i say) \"gamebreaking\" ability as ovechkin.

roncool11 wrote:

And to simply discount assists because \"they might be secondary\" is adsurd. Let\'s just randomly say everyone who gets alot more assists then goals is lucky and not really that skillful. Like you said yourself apples to oranges Malkin\'s a freaking center It\'s basically in his job description to set goals up.

so is it also in his job description to set up the guy who set\'s up the goal? I understand that everyone\'s stats are padded because of the secondary assists (including ovechkins), but i brought up the point to again stress the difference between Malkin\'s and Ovechkin\'s \"gamebreaking\" abilities. I wouldn\'t suggest that secondary assists really constitute as \"gamebreaking\" plays by a player. That was my point.

roncool11 wrote:

And I don\'t by this BS that Ovechkin is the hardest working player in the NHL, everyone works hard and their are probably 20+ less skilled players who make up for it with effort and try harder than AO.

I don\'t know that i ever suggested that oveckhin was the hardest working player in the NHL... and if i did it was just to reinforce my point that through his hard work, and his god-given skill set, he\'s the most \"gamebreaking\" player in the NHL. I haven\'t been arguing \"who\'s better\" or \"who\'s harder working.\" If you think that\'s the case, you are completely misunderstanding anything and everything I\"m writing on this topic.

I made a post after somebody suggested that \"ovechkin wouldn\'t get back on defense\" and that malkin had more of a \"whatever it takes to win\" attitude than him.

You\'ve jumped all over me spouting all this shit that\'s not really even applicable to the original posts, when really... i wasn\'t even addressing you in the first place.

roncool11 wrote:

I don\'t know who\'s the better player out of the top 3 but at least I don\'t pretend to know.

neither do i. but i don\'t think anyone can suggest that either Malkin has more of a \"whatever it takes to win\" attitude than ovechkin. Because, the bottom line is... that ovechkin does try to do whatever it takes to win... every game. Whereas malkin (as i said before), specializes in passes and losing faceoffs. Those are not things that by nature \"take over a game\" and \"win your team a game.\"

----------

You know what else? I\'ll even take it to this level... Jeff Carter has more of a \"whatever it takes to win\" attitude than malkin.

Jeff Carter scored more goals than malkin, won WAY more faceoffs, and had a higher shooting percentage than Malkin.

Can anyone say that i\'m really wrong? I mean seriously... can anyone say that Malkin doesn\'t have more of a \"whatever it takes to win\" attitude than Jeff Carter (when healthy)?

I mean seriously, Jeff Carter does everything better than malkin except passing (they are pretty even in their defensive abilities)... So does malkin losing faceoffs, not taking as many shots, not scoring as many goals, but making more passes really constitute \"whatever it takes to win?\"

I just don\'t see it.

That\'s all i was ever addressing... you\'re the one that branched the whole discussion off on a tangent...