Russia and Ukraine conflict.

[2014olympicgold]

What's happening in Russia/Ukraine will effect Canada. So I don't get that stance.

[Stifler]

It's a shitty attitude. Guess what, there will always be some issues in your home country. What kind of a world would we live in if every country took an "Every man for himself" kind of attitude?

Rylant

Theres more than " some issues " in Canada today.

But thats just my opinion. I dont think we need to be involved in Ukraine like we didnt need to be in Afghanistan.

It's a giant waste of money and resources.

[Canucks_fan18]

LOL Nice troll job. I'll bite.

With trump's help, Putin had been setting this up for the 4 years before Biden was elected. Trump did everything he could to weaken NATO while kissing Putin's ass the whole time. Trump lifted sanctions on Russia, put in place by Obama. Trump took Putin's word over his own intelligence in Helsinki. He allowed Putin to put bounties on American soldiers in Afghanistan by not saying a word. Never spoke badly about Putin. Not once did he criticize Putin and has been praising him all week for his invasion of Ukraine. If you didn't see this, then you're as delusional as MAGA. Let me guess. You send money to him every month.

Is this accurate? I was always under the impression Trump armed Ukraine and was pushing to cut off Europe's dependency on Russian Oil and Gas.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statu...D&refsrc=email

https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...222-story.html

[2014olympicgold]

I was always under the impression Pompeo and Trump fired the US ambassador to Ukraine (Yovanovitch) because she wouldn't help withhold weapons and military aid to fight Russians. Like it was something like he "gave" weapons to Ukraine, but told whoever to not give them out.


It was like Jan 2020 when it came out. Congress approved military aid to Ukraine in 2019, but Trump tried to withhold it and Yovanovitch was someone who was opposed to this openly. But 2019 was a simpler time for people who weren't watching the news and I might be off here.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trum...raine-aid.html

[Canucks_fan18]

I was always under the impression Pompeo and Trump fired the US ambassador to Ukraine (Yovanovitch) because she wouldn't help withhold weapons and military aid to fight Russians. Like it was something like he "gave" weapons to Ukraine, but told whoever to not give them out.


It was like Jan 2020 when it came out. Congress approved military aid to Ukraine in 2019, but Trump tried to withhold it and Yovanovitch was someone who was opposed to this openly. But 2019 was a simpler time for people who weren't watching the news and I might be off here.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trum...raine-aid.html

It was due to some details on the deal itself but ultimately it went through. The 2017 article pointed out that Trump was the first to strike a deal to supply arms to Ukraine something the previous administration Obama's wouldn't do. It's always hard when you cite articles in general because they seem to be so partisan.

You can tell by the video though and Trumps ramp up of oil production domestically he was all for US to be energy independent and against Russia supplying the Euro countries.

Not saying he was perfect but on these issues, the national security threat of not being energy independent he was spot on.

[2014olympicgold]

It was due to some details on the deal itself but ultimately it went through. The 2017 article pointed out that Trump was the first to strike a deal to supply arms to Ukraine something the previous administration Obama's wouldn't do. It's always hard when you cite articles in general because they seem to be so partisan.

You can tell by the video though and Trumps ramp up of oil production domestically he was all for US to be energy independent and against Russia supplying the Euro countries.

Not saying he was perfect but on these issues, the national security threat of not being energy independent he was spot on.

So I get his big schtick was keeping business in America. And that goes along with oil. But part of the impeachment was his dealings with him withholding approved military aid for Ukraine? Was the "trump was the one who gave Ukraine military backing" stance actually Trump who did it, or was it congress who did it? Cause by that article it makes it sound that Congress had approved funding for Ukraine's military and Trump was withholding it until they investigated Hunter Biden?

That was kind of my question on it. I don't know if Trump was the one who initially gave the funding, but he definitely withheld it at some point. Oh well, Trump did a lot of things, and I don't know if Trump being in power would have stopped Putin from doing what he is doing. Because it certainly didn't prevent anything when he came into Presidency in 2017 and left in 2021. Russia and Ukraine were still at war during that time (since 2014). But there is no way to know unless we build a time machine and get Trump to win over Biden.


---edit---

I was more addressing the "arming Ukraine" portion of the previous post. The removing international dependency on natural resources was not something I was touching on.

[GretzkysMullet]

It was due to some details on the deal itself but ultimately it went through. The 2017 article pointed out that Trump was the first to strike a deal to supply arms to Ukraine something the previous administration Obama's wouldn't do. It's always hard when you cite articles in general because they seem to be so partisan.

You can tell by the video though and Trumps ramp up of oil production domestically he was all for US to be energy independent and against Russia supplying the Euro countries.

Not saying he was perfect but on these issues, the national security threat of not being energy independent he was spot on.

Yeah, the "details" revolved around wanting to leverage the deal to damage Biden. That's what the impeachment was about.

Here's a more recent article discussing Trump's views on the current situation: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ukraine-crisis

[Canucks_fan18]

Fair enough good points. I am not sure if things would be different either. I think Trump would be more aggressive in his approach, which I don't know would be good or bad. Again this is all hypothetically. I really dislike how they didn't sanction Oil, although I do understand why with the worlds dependency on Russia as a major producer.

Still that goes back to all the things you can do outside of military force as a country to ensure you have economic leverage. China right now is a masterclass in this. Most of our good are manufactured there, their taking over natural resources in other countries by providing infrastructure and heck even our Hollywood movies depend on their revenue stream to be successful.

I have always maintained there are three legitimate super powers in the world. The US, China and Russia. The US with all it's warts is still the one I would want driving the bus.

[Canucks_fan18]

Disclosure I am big fan of Ovi, so I am probably bias and want to hear what everyone else thinks. What do you make of his comments on the matter? My personal feelings are he's got family and friends in Russia, who knows what would happen if he spoke out about it, if he would be putting them in danger. I don't think it's easy for him but I think he will get roasted for not denouncing Putin.

Thoughts?

https://www.tsn.ca/washington-capita...utin-1.1764018

[2014olympicgold]

Disclosure I am big fan of Ovi, so I am probably bias and want to hear what everyone else thinks. What do you make of his comments on the matter? My personal feelings are he's got family and friends in Russia, who knows what would happen if he spoke out about it, if he would be putting them in danger. I don't think it's easy for him but I think he will get roasted for not denouncing Putin.

Thoughts?

https://www.tsn.ca/washington-capita...utin-1.1764018

It's tough for athletes right now when it comes to political stances. On one hand, they're athletes and not politicians. On another they are asked to use their platform to inform people.

When it comes to Ovi and Putin. I was initially thinking it's unfair to ask Ovi what his thoughts are, but then remembered he did campaign for Putin not too long ago and used his platform to "inform" people about Putin. He deserves to be asked, but when it comes to what he says, I don't think the context will ever be genuine because of his family being in Russia.

It's a tough spot to be in, but he's kinda brought it on himself when he campaigned for Putin. But I don't know how I would be in his shoes. I'd likely say some PR driven statement that toes the lines between both disapproving what's happening and approving Putin for my families sake. Then maybe let it leak through some other means how I actually feel. If it's pure pro-Putin, let it leak through a Russian news agency. If it's anti-Putin, let it leak through an American news agency.

His comments are that toeing the line. But that "I'm not politics" line is "I'm political until I face adversity" style of thought which he shouldn't be into politics from the start if that's your stance.

[Invictus]

His comments are that toeing the line. But that "I'm not politics" line is "I'm political until I face adversity" style of thought which he shouldn't be into politics from the start if that's your stance.

But then welcome to 90+ percent of voters. Not to mention the push to get even more people to vote. People that probably have close to zero interest in politics and uninformed.

Ovi doesn't need to agree with everything Putin to support him, seemingly doesn't agree with the war, but out of fear for his family (which is pretty super legitimate) toes the line here. Or maybe he doesn't support Putin, but supported what Putin was doing previously (I'm not sure the specifics on what you were referring to).

[2014olympicgold]

But then welcome to 90+ percent of voters. Not to mention the push to get even more people to vote. People that probably have close to zero interest in politics and uninformed.

Yup it's a sticky situation for sure. I touched on that at the beginning of my post.

I think there's a difference between "get out and vote" vs "get out and vote for Putin" though. If you're not prepared to stand by your stance, or denounce your stance maybe you shouldn't be campaigning. But this is such a weird place for Russian athletes right now. We can talk about denouncing Trudeau, Biden or Trump but going against Putin is a totally different animal we can't even fathom.

[Invictus]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

This is a good read with some background information, although I'm sure it's not comprehensive.

Okay so many of President Putin's 'justifications' have been deemed false or irrational. I'm curious to his real reasons / motifs.

Is it that he still sees Ukraine as part of "Russia" (or at least should be) or is it something else I'm missing? (Oh I'm definitely missing things)

(This is directed to anyone that wishes to answer, not just solely to rataylor22 who provided me the source of info)

[PenguinHunter]

Ovy has commneted about it... https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2022/02/25...e-no-more-war/

Please, no more war,” he said. “It doesn’t matter who is in the war — Russia, Ukraine, different countries — I think we live in a world, like, we have to live in peace and a great world.”

[Invictus]

Ovy has commneted about it... https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2022/02/25...e-no-more-war/

Yes, that's pretty much the PR driven statement type that toes the line that 2014OG was is referring to though.

World Peace is pretty popular opinion