Tanking

[chuckcouples]

Easy solution...quit the league.

It's not worth playing in if there are more teams trying to lose than trying to win. It's obviously not a money league if teams are giving up 3 weeks into the season just so they can do worse than the teams that try to lose 2 months into the season.

[Moses]

I think you need to make quick action or the league will not survive.

Either:

1) add a minimum games requirement immediatly (you are the Commish, just do it)
2) fire the tanking GMs (give them back their money if need be, you are the Commish, just do it)
3) quit the league and walk away, find a better league to invest your time in

[stimperi]

It is a money league. Always appreciate the extra bucks from the tankers, but not good for the league longevity..

[stimperi]

The funny side is that we are committed to the league for three years, and if this tanker tanks the whole time and causes the league to collapse, then money and time well spent for him.

[Jouko-Pouko]

The funny side is that we are committed to the league for three years, and if this tanker tanks the whole time and causes the league to collapse, then money and time well spent for him.

I would collect winnings from the league for 3 years and then quit. I mean, why not when you have people like that in your league.

I understand rebuilding, it's needed sometimes. But there's no reason to bench everyone. Rules should be made so that you have to at least act like you're trying to win. If you want to trade your best players and acquire some scrubs, then that's all fine but don't bench your best players. That's the line between rebuilding and tanking IMO.

[theunrealmine]

We have rules in place to prevent teams from completely tanking. While some still choose to do so there are penalties.

Last place team during the regular season buys pizza for the league at the next draft.
Don't set your lineup X amount of times and you get a pick taken away. More times you don't set the higher the cost.
Team that wins the consolation round playoffs gets an extra name in the hat for the draft lottery.

There's still some bumps along the way and GMs will still sell off as many assets for picks before the traded deadline but this incentivizes GMs to keep active even after they've settled on tanking

[donions]

skipped some posts just wanna share my feelings;
If a GM in my pool stops setting his lineup regularly, we immediately start looking for a replacement GM. Especially this early in a season.
I feel like that's an absolute requirement to being in a pool, if that's not a rule it should be.

I'm on the brink of "giving up" on this year, I know I cant win, but im still gonna set my lineup, maybe make a run at 3rd place who still gets $ at end of year.

[Leikkikalu]

Hi everyone! Thank you all for your contribution.


First things first I’m the tanker! I'm not just a tanker. I'm the tanker (or wanker) that you want out of Stimperi's league. Second most important thing is that our league has entry fee and you can win money if you do well. If you tank you give up your chance to win. There is your penalty for tanking. Also, let’s not pretend that tanking is fun. Because we don’t have min games it is the most boring thing to do but is it fun to manage roster that isn’t winning day in and day out. This isn’t like boxing where you could lose every round and KO your opponent at the last round. Third most important thing could be that rules of our league states very clearly that tanking is allowed.


At this point, it is quite clear that I’m not winning. I’m also a bad manager but it isn’t important right now. 3rd place could have been possible to achieve but it wasn’t likely. What else there is to do than tank? Why should I come 5th or 6th out of 9 and be happy about it? My goal is to win, and it wasn’t happening this season. Next best thing is to give me biggest possible chance to win next year. If there is a right way to tank it might be as open about it as possible. I’ve done just that.


About timing. It might be too early (~86 % of the games are still to come) to tank but it also might be only (and the best) change I get. Teams that were below me at the standings had time to react to it. At this point they haven’t. I don’t know if they don’t want to tank or if they haven't noticed it. If they enjoy managing losing team day to day basis, why should I do so? I’ve shown my cards. It is their job to react to it. If they fail to do so, why I’m the bad guy?


About the future of our league. It is my best interest to keep this league alive. If this league folds my tanking will be for nothing. If this league folds it won’t be because my tanking. Most probable cause of death of our league will be lack of interest from some managers and I’m not one of them. Other likely reason could be that managers aren’t willing to rebuild (one way or another) their team when that time comes around.


And lastly about why this thread was started. It wasn’t about is it OK to tank or when it is OK to start tanking process. It was about commish and his role. From my point of view, it is bit unfair that commish tries to help person that is currently holds the last place. It is fine to announce that someone has started their project to be last but I’m not sure is it OK that league regulator starts to advice other managers how to deal with that. It would have been fine my me if somebody have asked what to do with this situation, but no-one said or asked anything. If someone asks something it is OK to answer but is it cool to be proactive like that? Please try to be as neutral as possible about this.


P.S. Hopefully I made my self clear enough. English is not my strong suit.

[Godin]

Over the years, I'd have to say that the biggest problem with tanking is that... it works.
Because of that one simple fact, it will never go away, no matter what. GMs (some) will always find a way to do it, even if they have to make trades to ensure they have no producers.

One of my leagues, in particular, at least 3 participants completely destroyed their teams with a "rebuild" and refused to start the few young players they already had who were solid producers. Benching their producers (despite no injuries) was, remarkably, allowed.
Soon thereafter, they won the league.

A 4th guy deployed a similar strategy and is currently leading the league, albeit early days.

Conversely, I refused to tank, always icing my best team even though it constantly hurt my draft position. I finished as high as 2nd. And now, my producers are getting old and I'm realizing that I topped out. Rebuild is upon me and it's tempting to tank for a few seasons. I won't, of course, but I admit it's tempting to do it.

It feels like those dirty cops in the movies... damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I don't get it. What harm is there in tanking? It's a great way to rebuild and like I said earlier, it creates activity in your pool.

Our pool has been around for 30 years and there has always been tanking. How much fun can it be if you're stuck in the middle of the standings for 3 or 5 years while your players are getting older and more expensive? At least with tanking, there is a purpose. I have done it and it can be as much fun and rewarding to tank and go after the top picks as it is winning, and i've done that as well. And if you know what you're doing, you could build a contender in 2 or 3 years.

[SuperMario]

The issue with teams tanking / league sustainability is if said tanker is unsuccessful in their tank, and decide to quit. Nobody wants to simply contribute to the prize money year after year without a chance in winning. So yes, tanking is way to rebuild your team. 100%.

But it doesn't always work. Prospects are rarely a sure thing. So unless you manage to snag nothing but "can't miss, blue chip" guys, there's always the chance that your tank will fail and you'll be no further ahead than you were when you decided to tank in the first place. What I've seen happen too many times at that point is the tanker quits, and leaves behind and absolute tire fire of a team, one that is next to impossible to find a manager willing to pay to take over. That can kill a league.

I'm not saying that anyone in this particular situation would / wouldn't quit, but when you're running a league - especially a keeper / dynasty - the goal is to ensure the long-term success of the league. Letting one team bottom-out and quit is a sure-fire way to fail as a commish.

[Kofax]

I don't get it. What harm is there in tanking? It's a great way to rebuild and like I said earlier, it creates activity in your pool.

Our pool has been around for 30 years and there has always been tanking. How much fun can it be if you're stuck in the middle of the standings for 3 or 5 years while your players are getting older and more expensive? At least with tanking, there is a purpose. I have done it and it can be as much fun and rewarding to tank and go after the top picks as it is winning, and i've done that as well. And if you know what you're doing, you could build a contender in 2 or 3 years.

The goal of the league should be for the worst team to get the best pick, the second worst team gets the second best pick and so on. It helps create parity and keep the league competitive, which is what is fun about fantasy hockey.

My problem with tanking, is that it throws that order out of whack. You get a team who isn't actually the worst team out there ending up with the best pick. Suddenly your distribution is off and creates separation.

You're always going to have better and worse teams, but the goal of the league should be to make sure that all teams are somehow forced to at least try and field a competitive roster so that the actual scores and outcomes can truly determine what team is worst to get that best pick.

Now obviously down years for players can interfere with this, but that should be the goal of the league in my opinion.

[stimperi]

I voiced my concerns last year that this tanking thing might ruin the league if we let it roll for years, and here we are again. One month into the season. Of course the worse teams can counter-tank if they decide to do so, as mentioned here, but is there any fun in the game really left if there is an all-out tank war when the puck has barely dropped in the season?

[stimperi]

I mean there sure are not many incentives to try and finish 5th or 6th, other than league integrity. Which for some people apparently means nothing if there is something to gain personally in the expense of others.

[lucafen4]

The biggest change I would make is that voting on rule changes need be unanimous. Nothing will change for the better. often rules need to change to resolve an issue. I go with majority vote, often those assenting with their vote are good with the change, but have voted for their preference.

[stimperi]

The biggest change I would make is that voting on rule changes need be unanimous. Nothing will change for the better. often rules need to change to resolve an issue. I go with majority vote, often those assenting with their vote are good with the change, but have voted for their preference.

I take full blame on these rule flaws, as they were written by myself, and it is the first dynasty league I am commishing. The idea was to keep the league stable in its beginning, also for that reason the managers committed to the league for the first 3 seasons.

As it turns out, they are quite literally turning to provide the opposite of stability. May this be a lesson for me and hopefully someone else too.