Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

[Pengwin7]

Dupuis is valuable, but I think theres many others who could fill his role.

There may be veterans that could fill his role.
But it this takes time.
Dupuis arrived in PIT in 2008... and he sat on the 3rd line for several years before finally working his way up to spot-duty on Crosby's line.
Years of practicing on the same team, you learn about player tendencies.

We don't talk about overall line chemistry much here (not "point totals", but I'm talking about overall line chemistry, incl. back-checking) on this site.
But a line has to be a PLUS line.

Q: Could Bennett put up 50pts if he played a whole season with Sid?
A: Sure, absolutely.

Q: Would the guys on that line be +20 or +30?
A: I say no.

Centers need to take primary responsibility for back-checking to cover the three opposing forwards... but this isn't written in stone.
Any forward knows that it is really the responsibility of the "first forward back" to man-up with opposing forwards.
If you watch Dupuis enough, he really is an excellent two-way player - very cognizant of this facet of hockey.
Look at Dupuis' +/- numbers in Pittsburgh... do you see a MINUS season?
That's not an accident and it's not lucky.
And you can call it "Pittsburgh", but he spent a lot of time playing with J.Staal, the Matt Cookes, the Max Talbots, and Tyler Kennedys.
Dupuis put up 6pts in 6games for PIT in the 2012 playoffs.
Dupuis put up 11pts in 15games for PIT in the 2013 playoffs.
Those are pretty solid totals.

Bennett - I haven't seen it from him yet.
He was -2 in 21 games this year... and -1 in the playoffs.

I haven't seen the two-way game, the overall meshing, and I (for one) don't believe it's there with Beau Bennett.
That 3rd wheel on the Crosby line needs to be a veteran - and I'm not sure there's many available for $4m as quality as Dupuis... and even if there is... that player may need two seasons to truly gel with Sid.

[rataylor22]

Pittsburgh rolling a top line of Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis is just fine. They probably win that series with Dupuis. And it doesn't really matter what caliber of player Dupuis is, he works with Crosby and that line so on Pittsburgh he's a first line winger.

Two examples to prove my point.

Craig Conroy was not a 1C. On Calgary, with his chemistry with Iginla, he was a 1C

Matt Lombardi was definitely not a 1C. On Calgary, the line of Cammaleri - Lombardi - Iginla was dynamite. Then they traded Lombardi to bring in Olli Jokinen, a true "1C" and that line fell apart. If the line works, it doesn't matter what the skill level of the individual components are rated as. This reference might be a little harder to remember, but that line was rolling until they lost Lombardi and got Jokinen.

If Dupuis is playing, Pittsburgh is icing a lineup of

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Bennett - Sutter - Stempniak
Gibbons/Vitale - Goc - Adams/Glass

In terms of skill and balance, just 1 player makes this a MUCH better lineup. Pittsburgh probably doesn't lose with this lineup to New York. Boston/Montreal different story, it is tough to say.

Bennett has just shown he's not a top 6 guy, at least not yet he isn't. No I don't think the Penguins need a massive overhaul. Trading Malkin would be a terrible idea, unless you're getting like a Weber back. There is almost no version of a Malkin trade where Pittsburgh wins the deal.

Someone speculated signing Kulemin as a FA. Played and has had chemistry with Malkin in the past, should be cheap, brings another Russian on the team to make Geno more comfortable. I don't think it is a terrible idea except I'd rather see Jussi on Malkin's line instead.

I'd prefer them get rid of Letang and keep Niskanen, but that might not be possible. Time for Orpik to go. Fluery wasn't the problem. Does firing Bylsma help, if they can bring in Trotz? Maybe, really tough to say. Minor tweaks, but any major moves IMO makes the team worse not better.

[Krysmo]

Replacing J. Staal with B. Sutter shouldn't have hurt them that bad. Staal isn't a game breaker and Sutter is a solid 3rd line centre that many teams would love to have.

To me if you have that many star players under performing in the playoffs, it's a coaching issue.

Start by firing Bylsma, who also couldn't make proper adjustments in the Olympic playoffs.

Then see if there is a goaltending upgrade out there, but if not tweak a 3rd line and a 4th line winger, and start again next year.

If the new coach isn't getting the team committed to consistent play, make a bigger change.

[Fast Tony DeNiro]

The bottom 6 and defense is where the Pens are hurting. Although adding Goc at the deadline was a nice move....Sutter/Goc as your 3rd and 4th centers is a pretty good start at least defensively. Stacking your top line with Sid and Geno though is just asking for trouble....neither Sutter nor Goc bring enough offense to pick up the slack. That bottom 6 has potential to be good and maybe with some time, and a healthy season from Bennett it can become a plus unit.

The defense is bad though. For as much grief as MAF has gotten the last few years, and most has definitely been warranted, he has not had much help from his defense. Letang is not a #1 defender, Orpik is no longer a top 4, Maatta is a (good) rookie, Scuderi is three years past his prime....they don't have a top pairing defender anywhere in the bunch. Good puck movers, but they get pushed around in their own end and give up quality chances consistently. That means their forwards are having to put in some extra work to help out making it harder to come by scoring chances namely odd-man rushes. When your top center (Crosby) is having to focus so much on his own end, it's going to hurt his scoring numbers.

[mister_mcgoo]

The bottom 6 and defense is where the Pens are hurting. Although adding Goc at the deadline was a nice move....Sutter/Goc as your 3rd and 4th centers is a pretty good start at least defensively. Stacking your top line with Sid and Geno though is just asking for trouble....neither Sutter nor Goc bring enough offense to pick up the slack. That bottom 6 has potential to be good and maybe with some time, and a healthy season from Bennett it can become a plus unit.

The defense is bad though. For as much grief as MAF has gotten the last few years, and most has definitely been warranted, he has not had much help from his defense. Letang is not a #1 defender, Orpik is no longer a top 4, Maatta is a (good) rookie, Scuderi is three years past his prime....they don't have a top pairing defender anywhere in the bunch. Good puck movers, but they get pushed around in their own end and give up quality chances consistently. That means their forwards are having to put in some extra work to help out making it harder to come by scoring chances namely odd-man rushes. When your top center (Crosby) is having to focus so much on his own end, it's going to hurt his scoring numbers.

I meant to mention the D and then forgot. Yeah I agree with all your points here.
I think Orpik is the best they have at the moment and while he's usually underrated by folks he's still not a top pairing d-man in this league...great leader to be sure, great physical presence, he puts it all out there on the ice, he blocks shots, he kills penalties, etc but when you look around the league and compare him to what the other top teams have it's nowhere near enough. This is just the playoff teams:

Slam-dunks

Montreal - Subban
Boston - Chara
Rangers - McDonough
TB - Hedman
St. Louis - Pietrangelo
Minnesota - Suter
Detroit - Kronwall
Columbus - Tyutin
Chicago - Keith
LA - Doughty
San Jose - Vlasic

Borderline

Philly - Timonen (aging but still great leader)
Anaheim - Fowler (still growing into the role but very promising)
Colorado - Johnson/Barrie (both still need to work on their defensive game but promising)
Dallas - Goligoski (not a great #1 by any stretch but decent)

[The Bottlenecker]

The bottom 6 and defense is where the Pens are hurting. Although adding Goc at the deadline was a nice move....Sutter/Goc as your 3rd and 4th centers is a pretty good start at least defensively. Stacking your top line with Sid and Geno though is just asking for trouble....neither Sutter nor Goc bring enough offense to pick up the slack. That bottom 6 has potential to be good and maybe with some time, and a healthy season from Bennett it can become a plus unit.

The defense is bad though. For as much grief as MAF has gotten the last few years, and most has definitely been warranted, he has not had much help from his defense. Letang is not a #1 defender, Orpik is no longer a top 4, Maatta is a (good) rookie, Scuderi is three years past his prime....they don't have a top pairing defender anywhere in the bunch. Good puck movers, but they get pushed around in their own end and give up quality chances consistently. That means their forwards are having to put in some extra work to help out making it harder to come by scoring chances namely odd-man rushes. When your top center (Crosby) is having to focus so much on his own end, it's going to hurt his scoring numbers.

Championships start with a stingy defense which the Penguins did NOT have. All of Fast Tony's points concerning the Pens' "D" are dead on. I also think that they need to upgrade their third and fourth lines so that the new coach (cuz Bylsma has to go) can role them out more often and let Crosby and Malkin catch their breath and not be gassed by the end of the game. That being said, Vitale, Glass, Gibbons and Bennett can't shoulder the blame if they weren't on the ice enough to make a difference anyways. Fleury needs a change of scenery (a la Roberto Luongo) and guys like Dupuis, Orpik and Scuderi need to be put out to pasture.

[kovalchuk17]

did not read everyone's response but no pittsburgh does not need an overhaul. they simply need better depth than gibbons/bennett/vitale/etc. sutter and goc are ok but they arent the answer, they need a ridiculous 3rd line similar to chicago in their cup-winning years

[Big Ev]

They need a new coach and gm. That simple.

[MXHockey]

Bylsma and Shero are gone for sure...............

I predict that sign Hemsky and take a run at Moulson.

[letangerang58]

Kinda like the Caps needed an overhaul after losing to the Canadiens?

[Big Ev]

Kinda like the Caps needed an overhaul after losing to the Canadiens?

They still need one, so yes.

[letangerang58]

No, Dupuis is not a "top 6 NHL player", I agree.
Also - Chris Kunitz is not a "top line NHL player".
Does it matter?

If you get a guy that meshes well with Crosby... for $4m... then it's good value.
Dupuis (& Kunitz) mesh very, very well with Crosby.
There are some player in the NHL that are simply "meh" and you pair them with an elite player and they can be incredible.
Dupuis is one. Don't sell him short. He fits there. (I spent time closely watching Dupuis in Atlanta. When PIT got him in the Hossa trade, I remember stating what a very, very solid pick-up that was by PIT).

I agree with this. I think Pitt's problems aren't in the top 6.

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They still need one, so yes.

Yea, more so than they did before the overhaul.

[letangerang58]

Dupuis is very good value for what he gives the Pens, especially when you look at the 59 points he put up a few years ago. Personally, I think Crosby can play with just about anyone who is an above average skater and has decent hands and IQ, hence my mention of Bennett earlier. Dupuis is valuable, but I think theres many others who could fill his role.

You would think that but it hasn't worked out like that. There have been a number of experiments on both Crosby and Malkin's wings and no one has worked out quite as well as the guys who they have right now playing in those positions.

[Big Ev]

I agree with this. I think Pitt's problems aren't in the top 6.

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Yea, more so than they did before the overhaul.

I'm not sure how really overhauled. They kept McPhee, but fired Boudreau, lost Semin (which was definitely the right move).

Penguins don't need to overhaul the Top 6 like you said, but they do need to can Bylsma and Shero IMO

[agentzero]

All I gotta say is fix that power-play. Bylsma is actually a very good coach but boy that power play looked out of sorts to me too many times. When you have literally the two best centres in the game and they are ridiculously dynamic offensive talents, the PP should be lights out, but it looked predictable, slow and really nowhere near as dynamic as I'd expect it, no matter the quality of penalty kill they are facing. Something just looked wrong there and it isn't the first time. I remember when it was this passing game along the wall between Gonchar and Malkin all PP long with no one moving around... Static and predictable.. They made changes and it worked but now it has become more or less the same. Predictable passes and plays. Even with a healthy Letang they suffered from this... I'd like to see a change there.

Imagine Babcock (who isn't leaving DET) coaching this team? Money.