Rick Nash Trade - Looking back

[Mr. Guru]

You are judging a trade based on how far they went into the playoffs in the past to how far they are now.....after only a couple of months after the trade!

Think about that.

[Vanek! at the Disco]

Wow lucifer, you give whole new meaning to the term 'jaded fan'

Also 'arrogant' and 'jackass' come to mind

I'm not going to waste anymore time with you, it's just like in the other thread where you've already convinced yourself that you are right about everything before the discussion even begins so it is pointless to try to have a conversation with you.

[lucifer316]

When it comes down to it... both clubs have changed so much, that it's going to be impossible to assign the portions of each team's success/failure to each player that has changed.
We would debate it constantly, which players are most worthy of the team's success.

one player has 2 goals and 12 points in 19 playoff games making it out of the first round only once and the other has 35 goals and 73 points in 66 playoff games including a Cup and a conference finals

i am sorry but unless the 2 goal guy happens to put up more than the 35 goal guy or happens to score the Cup winning goal there really is no debate

My biggest critique of your reply is that you feel that Nash's main job is to score goals.
And you seem to prepared to give him no credit if he happens to put up 0G and 20A and the Rangers succeed.

that is his main job, that's what he makes all that money for, and i never said i will give him no credit if he does that

The best evidence we can hang our hat, IMO, is what Vegas offered up.
Which was that going into the 2012-2013 season, they had the Rangers pegged at 10:1 odds to win the Stanley Cup.
That's the highest the Rangers odds to win the cup have been to open a season in the last 5 years.

i don't agree with that at all Vegas odds do not determine if a team is actually better or not, also there is no way to tell how much of their jump in odds came from nearly winning the President's trophy and going to the ECF and how much is from the Nash addition, you are trying to imply that it is Nash and i think that is bogus

At this point - I think we're at the ol' Agree to Disagree.
Respect your arguments on this one though.
(sending you some REP)

to me at the end of the day the results have to be better in order to claim the team is better as a result of

that's why the games are played

i would send you rep but i am out

[lucifer316]

You are judging a trade based on how far they went into the playoffs in the past to how far they are now.....after only a couple of months after the trade!

Think about that.

it has been over 20 months since the trade that is more than a couple isn't it

they went to the ECF in 11-12, if you make a trade the purpose of which is to go further, and you don't go further how can the trade be considered a successful trade

[Pengwin7]

Unfortunate replies.
You've basically just decided that any success that the Rangers might have this year can be attributed to MSL.
And if the Rangers stink, it will be Nash's fault.

MSL has struggled since arriving in New York.
He had no problem putting up points in Tampa Bay.
To me... that says that it may be difficult for a player to score in New York.

I guess MSL is all washed up since he was so horrid in his regular season games since joining the club.
Terrible trade, I supose then... by FACT (stats decreasing)... but then... wait... you are prepared to say/agree they are better by... what... MSL's success in TB.
But what about the FACT (stats decreasing)!!! FACT.

And for the same reason, Nash's lack of playoff success on a totally dismal CBJ organization makes him garbage.
Whereas, since MSL has had success - why now - if NYR has success... we'll just chalk it up to MSL.

Well... I suppose there won't even be a need to evaluate each player's contributions.
It. has. already. been. decided.

Oh - you are off the tracks now.
You've simply set up your argument to say the following:
Any success that NYR has... shall be assigned to all players not named Rick Nash... unless he scores lots of goals.
Any failure that NYR has... shall be assigned to Rick Nash... unless he scores lots of goals.


Awful.
Send me that REP back when you can, because you clearly don't deserve it.

[lucifer316]

Wow lucifer, you give whole new meaning to the term 'jaded fan'

Also 'arrogant' and 'jackass' come to mind

I'm not going to waste anymore time with you, it's just like in the other thread where you've already convinced yourself that you are right about everything before the discussion even begins so it is pointless to try to have a conversation with you.

again this is rich i am arrogant and a jackass when you are the one who made the following statement

Anyone who doesn't recognize how both the Rangers and the Jackets are better off for this trade hasn't been paying close attention IMHO, both are better teams for the trade and that's why we're seeing such a good matchup.

looks to me like you are saying that anyone that doesn't agree with your statement doesn't know what they are talking about, because let's be honest when you accuse someone of not paying close attention you are accusing them of not knowing what they are talking about

i wonder how you come off calling me arrogant and a jackass when you came in here and basically told me i don't know what the **** i am talking about

[Mr. Guru]

Ottawa went to the cup finals WITHOUT Chara. Are they a better team with or without Chara?

Don't say stupid things and then try to back it up. Playoff success has more to do than a few players.

[Vanek! at the Disco]

again this is rich i am arrogant and a jackass when you are the one who made the following statement

looks to me like you are saying that anyone that doesn't agree with your statement doesn't know what they are talking about, because let's be honest when you accuse someone of not paying close attention you are accusing them of not knowing what they are talking about

just so you know, IMHO means "In my humble opinion"

At least I have the grace to call it an opinion instead of trying to present it as a fact like you do!

Fair-weather fans like you are a dime a dozen, they just love to shit all over the team and criticize every single move they make because it makes them feel somehow superior and smart, guess what? It does not, the more you talk the more it becomes obvious how little you understand anything.

i wonder how you come off calling me arrogant and a jackass when you came in here and basically told me i don't know what the **** i am talking about

Well if the shoe fits!

Enjoy your tirades and your playoffs Mr lucifer

[Dakkster]

No, playoff success is everything. Alex Ovechkin is worthless because he's never won a cup.

[lucifer316]

Unfortunate replies.
You've basically just decided that any success that the Rangers might have this year can be attributed to MSL.
And if the Rangers stink, it will be Nash's fault.

not entirely true, if Nash starts scoring some goals he will certainly be credited with his share of success

also not all of the success belongs to MSL just an amount commensurate with his contribution compared to others contributions

i mean Lundqvist has a 1.68 GAA at this point, Rask is the only starter with a better one, so Lundqvist as well as the defense deserve a great deal of credit at this point

MSL has struggled since arriving in New York.
He had no problem putting up points in Tampa Bay.

To me... that says that it may be difficult for a player to score in New York.
I guess MSL is all washed up since he was so horrid in his regular season games since joining the club.

Gaborik had 2 40 goal seasons in NY, i disagree with the notion that it may be difficult for a player to score in NY

Terrible trade, I supose then... by FACT (stats decreasing)... but then... wait... you are prepared to say/agree they are better by... what... MSL's success in TB.

i expect better from you than to use such a small sample size

And for the same reason, Nash's lack of playoff success on a totally dismal CBJ organization makes him garbage.

he isn't garbage but he isn't the first guy i think of when i think of playoff production

Oh - you are off the tracks now.
You've simply set up your argument to say the following:

Any success that NYR has... shall be assigned to all players not named Rick Nash... unless he scores lots of goals.
Any failure that NYR has... shall be assigned to Rick Nash... unless he scores lots of goals.

not at all, i have no problem giving Nash credit if he does what he was brought in to do and he certainly will not be the only one to get blame

if Lundqvist starts allowing 5 goals per game he will get blamed

if Brad Richards playmaker extraordinaire doesn't get an assist for the rest of the way and they get knocked out he is going to get blamed

if the PK ends up around 10% Boyle and Moore are going to get blamed, along with the defensemen

anyone on the team who doesn't do the job they are supposed to do enroute to elimination are going to get blamed

now Nash might get more of it from me but you know what he cost the team a ton in terms of players and cap hit and as such should get more of it

you have a high cap hit you are going to shoulder most of the blame for failure unless you happen to be doing your job, i don't see how that is somehow inappropriate

Awful.
Send me that REP back when you can, because you clearly don't deserve it.

right i don't deserve it because you are attributing things to me i never said

[lucifer316]

Ottawa went to the cup finals WITHOUT Chara. Are they a better team with or without Chara?

Don't say stupid things and then try to back it up. Playoff success has more to do than a few players.

the Ottawa statement has absolutely nothing to do with Nash and the Rangers

and i didn't make a stupid statement

if you make a trade in order to make your team better and your team is not measurably better that trade cannot in any way shape or form be deemed a success

this isn't rocket science

if the only way to determine if a trade is successful or not is that the team is different after the trade then all trades are successful for all teams

that is stupid

to suggest that a team be better after a trade in order to consider the trade successful is hardly stupid

you don't measure better on a piece of paper or in Las Vegas

it is measure in pretty specific ways

[kovalchuk17]

wow. heated thread lol.

lets see if nash scores a bunch of goals the rest of the way lol.

[Mr. Guru]

the Ottawa statement has absolutely nothing to do with Nash and the Rangers

and i didn't make a stupid statement

yes it does (you just have to look more closely)

and yes you did

[lucifer316]

just so you know, IMHO means "In my humble opinion"

At least I have the grace to call it an opinion instead of trying to present it as a fact like you do!

Fair-weather fans like you are a dime a dozen, they just love to shit all over the team and criticize every single move they make because it makes them feel somehow superior and smart, guess what? It does not, the more you talk the more it becomes obvious how little you understand anything.

i haven't expressed opinion, once again it is a fact that the Rangers finished with 109 points in 11-12, it is a fact that the Rangers went to the ECF in 11-12 etc

it is also a fact that they did not finish with 109 points this season, as of right now it is also a fact that they haven't gone to the ECF

it is a fact that 109 is better than less than 109, unless they advance to game 6 of the ECF this year it will be a fact that they finished worse than getting to game 6 of the ECF

these are not opinions they are facts, it is a fact that better results are better

i am a fan of my team no matter how they do so calling me fair-weather is another thing you have gotten completely wrong, being a fan doesn't mean i have to defend every move my team makes and to pretend everything they do automatically makes them better, being a fan doesn't mean being stupid and blindly following your GM

[lucifer316]

yes it does (you just have to look more closely)

and yes you did

no it doesn't because Ottawa didn't trade Chara, the two situations have nothing in common

the Rangers traded for Nash to make the team better, the team is not better