Actually my suggestion was a top-10 scorer plus a goalie prospect and a throw-in. If you were insulted by THAT, how did you feel about the OP's initial proposal, which was only a top-25 scorer, plus the goalie prospect and TWO throw-ins, for the #1 defenseman (by far) AND another top-25 scorer and a prospect coming back? My suggestion was much closer to being even, and i don't think your extreme reaction was warranted. Benn and pavelski had 79 points, tied for 8th in the NHL. Kunitz and Vanek had 68 points, tied for 24th.
10 team pts-only keeper league - keep 10 plus 10 from past/present farm. No bench: entire active roster counts. Goalies: 2 pts/win + 3/shutout. 82 adds / year. NHL playoffs count for separate prize.
F: J Eichel, M Tkachuk, J Guentzel, E Pettersson, P Laine, R Thomas, C Kreider, M Boldy, J Kyrou, M Backlund, F Vatrano, N Niederreiter, R Rakell, M Marchment, M Domi
D: A Fox, S Theodore, R Andersson, B Montour, S Durzi, D Keith
G: F Andersen, S Knight, J Swayman
IR: J Hughes, M Stone, M Grzelcyk, S Perunovich
Farm: L Raymond, O Wahlstrom, S Skinner, C Addison, Y Chinakhov, J Perreault
Karlsson is elite. You haven't included one elite player on the other side of the deal......only rookies or people that don't know what they are doing are going to trade a super-elite like Crosby or Karlsson (quality) for a bunch of non-elite options (quantity). The quality vs quantity thing when it comes to elite players has already been discussed in this thread.....unless you are in a joke of a league, the quantity for elite quality trade offers aren't going to accomplish anything but pissing off other managers. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is still nowhere near being a reasonable offer for the most elite dman on the planet.
10 team, head-to-head, multi-cat, keep-12 keeper league. CATS: G,A,+/-,PPP,PIM,SOG,HITS BS,SHP, W,SV,SV%,GAA,SO Daily rosters of 6F, 4D, 2 Flex, 2G
F: Crosby, Hall, Pacioretty, Hartnell, Neal, Nugent-Hopkins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Hossa, Huberdeau, Abdelkader, Bjugstad (IR)
D: Karlsson, Hedman, Muzzin, Savard, Streit (IR)
G: Lundqvist, Quick, Condon
I say add 15-20 points to a defenseman’s totals to make them equal to a forward. It is the easiest way to gauge their relevance. It’s a crude way, but effective. So Karlsson (70-80pt d-man) I would consider a 85-100pt player, to gauge a trade. Comparing apples to apples almost.
12 Team, H2H, Keep 6 (in Bold)
G, A, Pts, PPP, FW, SOG, Hits, Blocks
W, Saves, S%, GAA, Game Started
2C, 2LW, 2RW, 4D, 1Util, 2G, 5BN, 2IR, 1IR+, 1NA
C: Horvat, Trocheck
LW: J. Robertson, Byfield (C), Guenther
RW: Pavelski (C), Giroux (C), Svechnikov (LW)
D: Fox, Makar, Bouchard, Morrissey, Gudas
Util: Meier (LW, RW)
G: Oettinger, Georgiev, Samsonov, Woll
Oh, I'm easy I'm all about healthy, respectful discussion on the boards......no one's losing their cool in here. I agree that different perspectives are key, I was just rationally explaining why I feel his suggested offer is nowhere near Karlsson's value, it's all good
10 team, head-to-head, multi-cat, keep-12 keeper league. CATS: G,A,+/-,PPP,PIM,SOG,HITS BS,SHP, W,SV,SV%,GAA,SO Daily rosters of 6F, 4D, 2 Flex, 2G
F: Crosby, Hall, Pacioretty, Hartnell, Neal, Nugent-Hopkins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Hossa, Huberdeau, Abdelkader, Bjugstad (IR)
D: Karlsson, Hedman, Muzzin, Savard, Streit (IR)
G: Lundqvist, Quick, Condon
I guess it was a "cool" sort of "insulted", haha. I love the conversation too, so it's all good. And I can see how benn or pavelski might not be enough for karlsson, but it's certainly better than lucic (assuming kunitz = vanek. And gibson, zuc and bennett were included in both my proposal and the OP's).
10 team pts-only keeper league - keep 10 plus 10 from past/present farm. No bench: entire active roster counts. Goalies: 2 pts/win + 3/shutout. 82 adds / year. NHL playoffs count for separate prize.
F: J Eichel, M Tkachuk, J Guentzel, E Pettersson, P Laine, R Thomas, C Kreider, M Boldy, J Kyrou, M Backlund, F Vatrano, N Niederreiter, R Rakell, M Marchment, M Domi
D: A Fox, S Theodore, R Andersson, B Montour, S Durzi, D Keith
G: F Andersen, S Knight, J Swayman
IR: J Hughes, M Stone, M Grzelcyk, S Perunovich
Farm: L Raymond, O Wahlstrom, S Skinner, C Addison, Y Chinakhov, J Perreault
I came back with the offer of :
P. Kane + Kunitz
For
Karlsson + Bennett
That's all the higher I'm going.
I see the position scarcity; it's quite obvious. It'd be nice to move the production from the wing to defense but I don't want to break the bank to do so. In my league, the 4-year averages for P. Kane and Karlsson are both around 4 points. Throwing in Kunitz with his 4 ppg average over 4 seasons HAS to be enough to make the deal work.
Again, I know roster makeup and value of position scarcity is important here, but I just feel like that's a lot to give up in a league where point scorers are the bread and butter.
Karlsson is great, but if he's the Crosby of defense, why isn't he a top-3 pick in draft pools? Do people feel forwards are more consistent or do people conform and do the popular thing by drafting forwards? Where do guys like Kane and Kunitz go in draft pools?
Food for thought.
Karlsson is the Crosby of D, but still not a top 3-pick, because Ds (being Ds) have a ceiling in terms of upside. Their first job after all, is to defend, so no matter how elite they are, their upside is never going to be better than the super elite Forwards (Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Stammer). This explains why, in a points pool, I would expect those 4 to go first, going forward. If SOGs and Hits are added, then Ovi enters the mix as well. Not to mention, if there are strong goalie cats, then Rask and Lundy are in it too (but likely not the top 3 in the regular season).
The key to me is, though, that you always need to look at the difference between the player you select and the next best option at that position. The reason why you select Karlsson in the first round (late) or early 2nd round in pools, is because the difference between him and the next D is likely much larger than the difference between picking a 85 pt Forward in Rd 1 and an 80 pt Forward in Round 2.
Typically, I would expect P Kane to be picked late in Round 1 OR early Round 2, Kunitz is likely a Rd.3 or a Rd.4 pick in a 12 - 15 player pool.
League 1: 2021 Dobber Entry (Patrick), Yahoo Roto, 10 Teams
4C, 4LW, 4RW, 6D, 2G start; 5 Bench
Skaters: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Hits
Goalies: W, Saves, GAA
Forwards:
C: Malkin, ROR, Backstrom
LW: Forsberg, Parise
RW: Gallagher, Hornqvist, D Brown, Kessel
Dual Eligibility: Svechnikov, Jamie Benn, Radulov, Domi, Rakell, Pavelski
Defense: Hamilton, Letang, OEL, Suter, Spurgeon, Girard
Goalies: Vasilevskyi, Lehner, Mrazek, Reimer
Patrick Kane maybe?
Karlsson and Kane are both first round picks, and kunitz is way better than bennett, so you are being more than generous here. If they say no, just walk away.
10 team pts-only keeper league - keep 10 plus 10 from past/present farm. No bench: entire active roster counts. Goalies: 2 pts/win + 3/shutout. 82 adds / year. NHL playoffs count for separate prize.
F: J Eichel, M Tkachuk, J Guentzel, E Pettersson, P Laine, R Thomas, C Kreider, M Boldy, J Kyrou, M Backlund, F Vatrano, N Niederreiter, R Rakell, M Marchment, M Domi
D: A Fox, S Theodore, R Andersson, B Montour, S Durzi, D Keith
G: F Andersen, S Knight, J Swayman
IR: J Hughes, M Stone, M Grzelcyk, S Perunovich
Farm: L Raymond, O Wahlstrom, S Skinner, C Addison, Y Chinakhov, J Perreault