Who is MORE valuable? Crosby or Rask.

[SergeP]

Not sure about this fancy shmancy technomological program you're running but I can tell you that in my league, Rask isn't even the top point producing goalie; he's third behind Varly and Bishop. Crosby is well ahead of all other skaters however. And before you go all "yeah but that's anectdotal!!!", let me tell you that we use ESPN's default scoring categories, which are pretty much the same as Yahoo and Fantrax defaults. So, in other words, we're set up much like a large chunk of the leagues out there. And if that wasn't enough, Rask was only ranked 7th (!) amongst goalies last year whereas Crosby was third overall amongst forwards in spite of having missed about 30% of the season.

Crosby, all day every day. Oftentimes the obvious answer is the right one.

[mydogsnameiscrosby]

Not sure about this fancy shmancy technomological program you're running but I can tell you that in my league, Rask isn't even the top point producing goalie; he's third behind Varly and Bishop. Crosby is well ahead of all other skaters however. And before you go all "yeah but that's anectdotal!!!", let me tell you that we use ESPN's default scoring categories, which are pretty much the same as Yahoo and Fantrax defaults. So, in other words, we're set up much like a large chunk of the leagues out there. And if that wasn't enough, Rask was only ranked 7th (!) amongst goalies last year whereas Crosby was third overall amongst forwards in spite of having missed about 30% of the season.

Crosby, all day every day. Oftentimes the obvious answer is the right one.

Obviously it depends on scoring categories. In a league where shots and/or saves are a category that will decease Rask's value. Crosby doesn't deliver in certain categories either ie blocks, hits, SH pts.

[Axeman33]

Not sure about this fancy shmancy technomological program you're running but I can tell you that in my league, Rask isn't even the top point producing goalie; he's third behind Varly and Bishop. Crosby is well ahead of all other skaters however. And before you go all "yeah but that's anectdotal!!!", let me tell you that we use ESPN's default scoring categories, which are pretty much the same as Yahoo and Fantrax defaults. So, in other words, we're set up much like a large chunk of the leagues out there. And if that wasn't enough, Rask was only ranked 7th (!) amongst goalies last year whereas Crosby was third overall amongst forwards in spite of having missed about 30% of the season.

Crosby, all day every day. Oftentimes the obvious answer is the right one.

I do agree that sometimes the name doesnt always equal the rankings seen on fantasy sites.

Like mydogsnameiscrosby says, it will depend on league setup that drives value, not the general ranking we find online. Thats why programs like fantasyhockeygeek are so valuable to use when trying to evaluate trades.

[newfcollins]

The OP has Rask on his team, not Crosby. I think he's wanting us to say Rask is more valuable because that is what the stats show and he's a Rask owner.

[Kofax]

Does no one else think supply and demand is an issue here?

2C requried vs 2G required? There's a lot more C out there than starting goalies. I concede there's much more fluctuation in goaltenders and you might want to take Crosby because of that, but it really looks a lot closer than many people on here are stating.

[mydogsnameiscrosby]

The OP has Rask on his team, not Crosby. I think he's wanting us to say Rask is more valuable because that is what the stats show and he's a Rask owner.

1) No I started this post for a good discussion and because I love hockey, and seriously cannot believe I didn't play a serious fantasy pool until this year (previously just a "roto"-style pool w/ some buddies), and have turned into a fantasy hockey nerd.

2) I am actually surprised ANYBODY has even said Rask comes close b/c conventional wisdom seems to be the following: "Crosby and it isn't even worth breaking down why." pmorrow136


3) I am not disagreeing that "Crosby is a fantasy God", which is well deserved. I feel like Rask is also a fantasy hockey goalie God. Wanted to see what others thought.

4) For my league we are in Year 1 of a 5-year pool. I had 6th pick overall and it went something like Crosby-Stamkos-Ovechkin-Malkin-Tavares-Rask(me) etc. I think this was a STEAL given the league factors and looking at that FHG ranking and all.

5) I am trying to look at this whole scarcity value/roster spots/scoring categories altogether. Players are worth 8 categories, Goalies 4. So you would think players are more valuable right? Well, MAYBE!?!?.. If I have 16 roster spots total and can ice 2C, 2LW, 2RW, 3D, & 2G daily, well that means that I have a whole crapload more of the roster devoted to winning the 8 skater cats vs the 4 goalie cats. So if you only roster call it 2-5 goalies (yes there are some goalie hoarders in the league, esp if they need backups to compete!), well then isn't having the best goalie maybe more valuable? (another way of looking at it, in addition the whole deep-C argument.

6) I love Crosby. I named my dog Crosby. Part of the reason for this post is I would love to trade for Crosby. But is giving up Rask + 1st Rnd + Getlzaf/Toews worth it? How can that be worth it if Rask is on level with Crosby!?!?! I ran the FHG to check that, and fully expected Crosby to be higher. But he wasn't. So yeah. Lots of reasons to post, not just to hear back "yes Rask is more valuable"

[pmorrow]

6) I love Crosby. I named my dog Crosby. Part of the reason for this post is I would love to trade for Crosby. But is giving up Rask + 1st Rnd + Getlzaf/Toews worth it? How can that be worth it if Rask is on level with Crosby!?!?! I ran the FHG to check that, and fully expected Crosby to be higher. But he wasn't. So yeah. Lots of reasons to post, not just to hear back "yes Rask is more valuable"

*notices username*

[Pengwin7]

Even the most statistically gifted computational algorithms have not yet (from what I've seen) been able to accurately peg down the value of GAA & SV% relative to other goalies.
GAA & SV% value... relative to Win value... or relative to Skater Cat Values like G, A, PIM... GAA & SV% values are "best guess" at weighting by any number-cruncher.

I mean, what's more valuable in a W/GAA/SV% pool:
Goalie A: 15 wins in 20 starts, 2.10 GAA, .925 sv%
or
Goalie B: 30 wins in 50 starts, 2.20 GAA, .920 SV%

If anybody can claim they know the more valuable goalie with 100% confidence, I call bullshit.

How much value do you accredit to each category?
[I... and others who put "scores" on goalies & skaters... have to come up with a "category score" and add them together to get a total... but it is very difficult, especially w.r.t. GAA & SV%]

I like the concept of FHG - but dont' consider it the GOD of fantasy hockey statistics.
I had a long conversation with FHG several years ago and I told him his "zero value" score was in the wrong place.
Within a year he had moved it... and that was for the more dependable "skater score".

So don't bank that the goalie ranker is perfectly accurate either.

As the ol' sayin goes "Don't compare apples to oranges".

Crosby is a top 10% of the pack skater in any month where he's healthy.
Rask is going to fluctuate over the years... and if a guy like Chara is out of the line-up, he could take a big hit.
Overall, how many goalies have consistently finished top 5 in overall "per game" value over the last 10 years?
Crosby though... in "per game" value, is a top 5 skater every year. (to my knowledge)

Crosby, for me.

[mydogsnameiscrosby]

Even the most statistically gifted computational algorithms have not yet (from what I've seen) been able to accurately peg down the value of GAA & SV% relative to other goalies.
GAA & SV% value... relative to Win value... or relative to Skater Cat Values like G, A, PIM... GAA & SV% values are "best guess" at weighting by any number-cruncher.

I mean, what's more valuable in a W/GAA/SV% pool:
Goalie A: 15 wins in 20 starts, 2.10 GAA, .925 sv%
or
Goalie B: 30 wins in 50 starts, 2.20 GAA, .920 SV%

If anybody can claim they know the more valuable goalie with 100% confidence, I call bullshit.

How much value do you accredit to each category?
[I... and others who put "scores" on goalies & skaters... have to come up with a "category score" and add them together to get a total... but it is very difficult, especially w.r.t. GAA & SV%]

I like the concept of FHG - but dont' consider it the GOD of fantasy hockey statistics.
I had a long conversation with FHG several years ago and I told him his "zero value" score was in the wrong place.
Within a year he had moved it... and that was for the more dependable "skater score".

So don't bank that the goalie ranker is perfectly accurate either.

As the ol' sayin goes "Don't compare apples to oranges".

Crosby is a top 3 skater in any month where he's healthy.
Rask is going to fluctuate over the years... and if a guy like Chara is out of the line-up, he could take a big hit.

Crosby, for me.

Very good points. Actually I started to get worried when Seidenberg went out of the lineup. Chara out WOULD BE A DISASTER. Good thing Chara isn't human.

TOTALLY AGREE it is hard enough to have FHG rank accurately within-skater or within-goalie lists, nevermind trying to mix the skater-goalie paradigm.

Then, does it come down to Crosby is #1 skater and Rask is #1 goalie and having either one on your team is what you want to do?

[Shiva Blaster]

mydogsnameisntrask There's your answer.

[MillerTime89]

Crosby > Rask

Who else puts up numbers at the rate Crosby does? He is a one of a kind.

When it comes to goalies.. I'd be satisfied with owning any of the top 5 goalies.. they'll all virtually do the same thing.. they win and have a good SV%..

[suvojitde]

Every time I have picked Sid, he has got injured and missed time, so, I understand that he is the best, but I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never be able to enjoy his fruits of labor, because the hockey gods don't want it that way!

Bottom line, if I could force myself to take another chance, it will be Sid any time, every time no question.

[mydogsnameiscrosby]

UPDATE:

Rask this week:

GP 2
Scoring Categories
Wins 1
GAA 0.48
Sv% 0.980
SO 1

So Rask almost singlehandedly winning 3 of 4 goalie categories for me, and contributing to the 4th

[Bomm Bastic]

Does no one else think supply and demand is an issue here?

Exactly where I was going with it.

P7 brings up very, very, valid points. But I think perhaps - insofar as his Chara point specifically - while it makes sense at first glance and also brings pause, are we projecting the unexpected ramifications from Pronger's sudden departure onto the Bruins?? Flyers had no time to prepare for that black hole in their defense.

Maybe..I dunno...I think Bruins traditionally are a more defense deep team than the Flyers. No?

As P7 stated, a goalies production does tend to fluctuate more than that of a forward of the Crosby's caliber. Scoring cats are definitely at play in this, but given Crosby's concussion history...

maybe we rephrase the question? Would you rather have Giroux/Rask or Crosby/Price?

[Bomm Bastic]

Just playing devil's advocate because I think OP poses an interesting question worth discussing. But I think ultimately ya have to go with Crosby due to upside + games played.