The NHL players need a reality check...I think

[bluejays]

Fehr is pushing this thing to the brink, telling the players to wait and they'll get more....Until a drop date is indicated, this circus will persist. The only one suffering are the fans. Yesterday, was a grand example of a lucrative offer by a select few of owners and the players union pushing things and wanting more. Even though the main perimeters of the deal only affects 5-10% of the players and if there were a vote, 90% players would vote to play. Whether you like Bettman or not, he is for the state of the NHL and their franchises. These owners have millions and millions of dollars, and should have a lucrative return, given their investment, I know I would. At the end of the day, this latest offer only affects a select few (5-10% of players) and the silent majority of 90% and 2nd-4th line players would vote to play in a minute. I was pretty excited yesterday and then this curve ball.

[fulcrum]

The players DEFINITELY need a reality check.
I'm glad the owners pulled everything off the table. It was bound to happen eventually.

Totally agree....

[newfcollins]

What I find most interesting is how the tide seems to be turning against the players. It seemed as if during the last lockout, most people blamed the players for being greedy, and the owners were given some slack.

This time around, it started off with the owners being the bad guys. But slowly, the focus has shifted to the players taking the blame. Yes, people are blaming the owners still, but the players are taking a lot more blame than. They were in September.

[bluejays]

And sorry Sid, we the millions of Canadians fans and the NHL, wasted your time!

[SlobTheGreat]

Something I have been wondering, is we know the KHL must be sitting over there rubbing their hands together and cackling with glee....so do you think, in the long term picture, this helps them?

I know they like to sign the aging NHL stars to come home and finish off their careers there, but think about it. It looks like the NHL will NEVER be a stable work environment for players, and the KHL owners seem to have more change lost in their sofa cushions than most NHL owners have in the bank, so I have been thinking, do they start going after not just Russian stars, but all potential stars offering big contracts? At what point do they feel they can actually challenge the NHL for the honor of best league in the world?

Can you imagine if all of Europe and some of North America's up and coming stars decided to start taking their skills overseas? It wouldn't be long before the NHL was a league of 3rd and 4th liners.

I don't think this can happen in the near future, but I read recently the KHL has very big, long term plans...which is something the NHL seems to lack. It is obvious that at some point the players will have to cave and sign a deal here, but the heated emotions towards the league and the owners just don't evaporate over night. I expect there will be a lot of long held resentment.

I'm just hypothesising here, have no real grounds to base this on. Not sure it would be such a bad thing either, for the NHL to have a league actually challenge it. They seem to have a total lack of long term vision for the league and the game overall and I am not sure you can say the same about the KHL....it may take 20 years to get to this point (and 2 or 3 more labour disputes over here) but I could actually see it happening.

[arctic_rogue]

If we look at where the NHLPA and NHL have come since the very first offer, is there anything that the NHLPA has gained? I have the understanding that the issues have either remained status quo OR they have gone in the direction of NHL. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

If that is the case, then I don't think the players need a reality check. Each and every one of us would fight to keep our current benefits and wages when faced with an employer that is seeking significant concessions. Just my $0.02.

[ericdaoust]

Something I have been wondering, is we know the KHL must be sitting over there rubbing their hands together and cackling with glee....so do you think, in the long term picture, this helps them?

I know they like to sign the aging NHL stars to come home and finish off their careers there, but think about it. It looks like the NHL will NEVER be a stable work environment for players, and the KHL owners seem to have more change lost in their sofa cushions than most NHL owners have in the bank, so I have been thinking, do they start going after not just Russian stars, but all potential stars offering big contracts? At what point do they feel they can actually challenge the NHL for the honor of best league in the world?

Can you imagine if all of Europe and some of North America's up and coming stars decided to start taking their skills overseas? It wouldn't be long before the NHL was a league of 3rd and 4th liners.

I don't think this can happen in the near future, but I read recently the KHL has very big, long term plans...which is something the NHL seems to lack. It is obvious that at some point the players will have to cave and sign a deal here, but the heated emotions towards the league and the owners just don't evaporate over night. I expect there will be a lot of long held resentment.

I'm just hypothesising here, have no real grounds to base this on. Not sure it would be such a bad thing either, for the NHL to have a league actually challenge it. They seem to have a total lack of long term vision for the league and the game overall and I am not sure you can say the same about the KHL....it may take 20 years to get to this point (and 2 or 3 more labour disputes over here) but I could actually see it happening.

Short term it might help them a bit but long term it does nothing. If that was the case you would've seen overseas leagues gain huge traction in 94-95 and 04-05. That didn't happen. The NHL is THE league. Period.

The KHL is way more unstable than the NHL anyway.

[ericdaoust]

If we look at where the NHLPA and NHL have come since the very first offer, is there anything that the NHLPA has gained? I have the understanding that the issues have either remained status quo OR they have gone in the direction of NHL. If I am wrong on this, please correct me.

If that is the case, then I don't think the players need a reality check. Each and every one of us would fight to keep our current benefits and wages when faced with an employer that is seeking significant concessions. Just my $0.02.

They fought all this time to gain 89 million in make whole while losing over 500 million in 2012-13 salaries. Am I getting this picture right?

[Loch]

I think that's true... the NHLPA has gained nothing. And I think part of the problem is the mentality that they should. If I'm a 3rd or 4th line player making 1mil to 1.5mil, and I see that 2/3 of the league is unprofitable, I wouldn't be fighting the league. I would be trying to make a deal, as I would recognize players costs spiralled out of control.

The fact that they aren't "gaining" anything in this CBA doesn't mean they are mistreated. That is exactly where the reality check needs to factor in.

I'm pretty sure the players haven't attempted to make any 'gains' compared to the last CBA and as they have said they would be happy to continue playing under the previous deal I can't see an argument here.

And as someone mentioned the first league offer... that was for 43% HRR, 5 year ELCs and 10yrs before UFA status. Now over the course of 5 years a 24% drop in HRR going to the players is EXACTLY LIKE MISSING A WHOLE SEASON. (actually a season + 20 games, whatever) So going from the last CBA to the league's first offer is a dumber idea than a year of a lockout.

Even compared to a 50-50 split that first offer would be worse than missing half a year from the players' perspective. Throw in the changes to ELCs and Free Agency and it suddenly becomes worthwhile to miss some paychecks.

Sucks for the fans, but I don't know that the players are 'in the wrong' here any more than the league.

[Loch]

I definitely agree the first offer was crazy. But it was designed to do two things:
1) antagonize the players
2) telegraph an eventual 50/50 split (which most of us realized immediately after the offer and which Bettman admitted himself was the intention)

As for the antagonizing aspect of that offer, I hate to play the "he started it" card but the PA had raised the league's hackles previously for no other reason than to be confrontational (by refusing to begin negotiations until the summer when the league tried to start a year ago, and even before that totally crapping all over the league's realignment proposal).

Yeah, the whole antagonizing aspect of both parties behaviour pisses me off to no end. It is like neither side has any interest in taking the high road and they both just want to needle each other at every turn. It really is a master class in mature negotiation technique.

As for telegraphing a 50-50 split, I don't know that it really did that any better than saying 'look guys, it's going to be 50-50 +/- 1%'. Hell, everyone knew where the ball would land after the NBA labour issues and I don't doubt the PA and the players knew it as well. The jack-asses in question spent months arguing over stuff they already had accepted (at least in their own heads) just to show that they were tough negotiators.

F**k them all.

[arctic_rogue]

They fought all this time to gain 89 million in make whole while losing over 500 million in 2012-13 salaries. Am I getting this picture right?

Oh, I don't question that at all. It seems to silly to loose so much to gain so little. But, at some point they need to draw the line in the sand. Ultimately it's the owners giving out the stupidly long contracts (Suter and Parise anyone). And now the owners want to hold the players feet to fire not even a few months later. I just makes no sense to me.

I'm not saying the players aren't to blame here, just that I think they are getting too much of it right now. Bad contracts are ultimately given out by the owners and that is the single most impactor on the financial state of the NHL. Instead of pointing the finger squarely at the players, I believe both the players and owners should shoulder it. It's been mentioned here before that both sides need to work together to grow revenue and give up fighting over minor things.

[arctic_rogue]

F**k them all.

Yep. I agree entirely!

[Mr. Guru]

Just wait till the next CBA when they miss a season because owners don't want guaranteed contracts and that will be 'the hill they die on'.

Seroius question: Do you guys honestly think if Bettman (threatens) to cancel the season, the PA will agree to the leagues vital points in the new CBA?

[doulos]

I think any union (in any field) needs to be mandated to send their workers to go work at Tim Horton's for six months, with full Tim Horton's pay of course, before they can come back to the bargaining table.

Reality has a way of kicking the crap out of idealism.

[Loch]

I think any union (in any field) needs to be mandated to send their workers to go work at Tim Horton's for six months, with full Tim Horton's pay of course, before they can come back to the bargaining table.

Reality has a way of kicking the crap out of idealism.

I don't know that this will really change Weber's mind, what with that 8mil signing bonus.

It's like threatening me with sharks with laser beams if I pee in the pool. It is so phenomenally unlikely that I will end up in that situation as to have no meaning. I'll throw out a bet that the number of former NHLers working at Timmy's to pay bills is in the single digits.

As for 'will the players cave if Bettman threatens the season?' I'm gonna say i'd lean more towards 'no' at this point.