Career Backup Vezina Trophy Winner?

[the_slaves]

Irresponsible was not letting Elliott play for a new shutout record after having put 3 back to back SO's together against playoff contending teams as the regular season was drawing to an end ... and then making him play the upcoming Detroit game ... to give him the greatest difficulty of achieving that new record ... while at the same time protecting Halak's fragile ego again ... just as you have get the team ready to start it's first round of the playoffs ... that what Irresponsible is!

OK ... granted I acknowledge that Elliott won't win the Vezina because he is a backup goalie (and management and League officials don't like tradition to be violated) ... but his record is pretty phenomenal in light of the high-end teams that he has had to play against all season.

I'm sure Elliott (in a worse case scenario) could have played 0.500 hockey against the bottom end of the League with St. Louis in front of him to equal Rinne's Win total this season. Anything better than 0.500 (which I deem to be likely) would have put him in Vezina trophy contention.

Even if I were Jim Carrey posting under my alias ... its the logic you can't argue with. Cheers!

[JagrBomb]

That's the thing here, we don't know what Elliott's numbers would be like because it's such a small sample size we are looking at here. If he had played 50+ games it would be a better assessment, but it would still ONLY be one season of statistics.

Instead, we are left with a 30+ game sample size to view, and we're supposed to give the guy a Vezina trophy based on that sample size? That's rich...

Can you say Jim Carey? I mean seriously, how often do goalies have hot stretches of the season, perhaps 30-game stretches? I don't have accurate statistics, but I'm sure it happens quite frequently.

The simple fact of the equation is that we know Elliott's past, and his present is not "extensive" enough to make a definite argument regarding his INDIVIDUAL skill level, and hence his future production. Elliott has had an outstanding season, but is he a Vezina trophy winner? No, he simply doesn't have the number of starts, wins etc. to get the job done. Could be possibly have good enough numbers if he had started 60+ games? Maybe. The only problem is that we'll never know, and you can't award the Vezina trophy based on projection of a small sample size, that's just irresponsible.

exactly. i didnt not deny elliot's play under hitch, it has been amazing. but he does NOT deserve the vezina over guys like lundqvist/rinne who have played the whole season and have more wins than elliot has starts. like sentium said above, thats why the jennings trophy was created. halak and elliot have already won the jennings (at least im pretty sure they have), but the vezina will probably go to lundqvist. any talk of elliot getting the vezina is ridiculous.

[27Blue]

elliott has had an amazing season. period. a GAA below 1.50 and a SV% above .948 is unheard of for 10 games, 20 games, 30games...

he won't win the vezina (and i don't think he should), because that award is going home with j. quick! sorry king H, but you have to wait another year...

[doulos]

elliott has had an amazing season. period. a GAA below 1.50 and a SV% above .948 is unheard of for 10 games, 20 games, 30games...

he won't win the vezina (and i don't think he should), because that award is going home with j. quick! sorry king H, but you have to wait another year...

Come on, he had a .966 save percentage in 2007-2008 with the Senators. This season has NOTHING on that one.

[the_slaves]

You're a funny guy! ... but I'm Jim Carrey ... so I rest my case.

Actually, have you ever noticed that almost every player that makes it big breaks out in exactly their 4th season. Ask Dobber ... he will tell you its true.
Why not for a goalie?

... as far as this season goes ... its Elliotts 4th season.{Twilight zone music playing eerily in the background}

Truth is stranger than fiction!

Come on, he had a .966 save percentage in 2007-2008 with the Senators. This season has NOTHING on that one.

[the_slaves]

As I predicted, Hitch has saved Elliott to play the Detroit game to try to set a new franchise record. He's is trying to give him the best chance possible
What a #%&#.

Irresponsible was not letting Elliott play for a new shutout record after having put 3 back to back SO's together against playoff contending teams as the regular season was drawing to an end ... and then making him play the upcoming Detroit game ... to give him the greatest difficulty of achieving that new record ... while at the same time protecting Halak's fragile ego again ... just as you have get the team ready to start it's first round of the playoffs ... that what Irresponsible is!

OK ... granted I acknowledge that Elliott won't win the Vezina because he is a backup goalie (and management and League officials don't like tradition to be violated) ... but his record is pretty phenomenal in light of the high-end teams that he has had to play against all season.

I'm sure Elliott (in a worse case scenario) could have played 0.500 hockey against the bottom end of the League with St. Louis in front of him to equal Rinne's Win total this season. Anything better than 0.500 (which I deem to be likely) would have put him in Vezina trophy contention.

Even if I were Jim Carrey posting under my alias ... its the logic you can't argue with. Cheers!

[Pengwin7]

No. Pressure.
No. Expectations.

This is the #1 reason why so many emerging goalies have flashes of success.
Goaltending is such a mental game.

Guys that are the back-up will constantly have years where they look like they are bonafide #1 starter material.
Then they get their shot... and 75% of those guys falter under pressure.

For example,
Phoenix goaltenders have recently been some of the top goaltenders in the league.
Why is this?

Some people say "Oh, it's Tippett... it's his system".
Tippett's "system" gave up 54 shots last night.
54 shots!

Mike Smith got the shutout... again.
Q: Do you know WHY Mike Smith has done well this year?
A: Because nobody in Phoenix gives a shit if he wins or not... in fact, there is absolutely no pressure & no expectations for that team to do anything.
For a goalie, there is NO BETTER environment in which to thrive than one with no pressure.

Going back to Elliott...
Elliott is the back-up.
There is no pressure. There are no expectations.
He wasn't expected to carry them, he wasn't expected to better than Halak.

Hitch or no Hitch... we don't know the True Elliott until he is a #1 goalie with expectations.
We don't know how ANY goalie really performs until he is a #1 goalie with expectations.

That's it.

In summary: Great season by Elliott... now, try doing it with some pressure.
When you perform well with pressure, then you are a Vezina candidate.

[TheRook]

Elliott has had a great year but lets see if he can have another solid season before we start handing him Vezina trophies.

[Casey Jones]

Haven't read through the whole thread, but let me throw out some statistics for those of you who like them.

Elliott: 9 Shutouts in 36 Games
Halak: 6 Shutouts in 45 Games
Smith: 8 Shutouts in 65 Games

On the surface it looks like Elliott and Halak are the better guys with the higher shutout/game ratio. All three of them play on presumably "defensive" systems. Let's dig a little deeper though. Of all these shutouts, let's see how many shots it took for each guy to shut the door on his opponents.

Elliot: 32, 19, 24, 24, 15, 15, 13, 37(OT), 20, 24 = 223 shots faced
Halak: 29, 19, 22, 15, 22, 25 = 132 shots faced
Smith: 31, 26, 38, 28, 42, 38, 44, 54 = 301 shots faced

I'm not sure what kind of defensive system Tippet has in place, but that team does not win those games without Smith standing on his head. His lowest shots faced total is 26 while Elliott only breaches that threshold twice (once in OT) and Halak only does that once. Smith's 54 shot shutout was just icing on the cake last night. Sure people will say it was against Columbus, but Columbus was actually one of the hottest teams in the league for the past few games carrying a very productive line in Umberger, Brassard, Atkinson. Smith has actually been a fairly good goalie throughout his career, but has had to deal with a lot of injury poroblems and "poor team" syndrome.

Given a choice of these three, give me Smith. For my money though, Quick deserves the Vezina as he's had to carry his team on his shoulders since Philly West can't seem to score. That's a whole other thread though

[the_slaves]

Sorry, Not a very good analysis ... if its just the no. of shots on nets then save percentage measures this exactly. The no. of pucks you let in the net for the no. of shots taken on you. Elliott bests Smith nos. by a ton!! Doing the analysis only on shutout games is sort of irrelevant.
Second, every one knows that it is the quality of shots that counts versus quantity. Toronto probably takes some of the most shots on nets during a game ... but they can't put it in. Why? ... the shots are from long distance, oblique angles, way to the outside. Just shoot it on net and hope it goes in. Teams like Detroit can score a ton of goals with only a few shots on net. They pass it around and shoot it in when the net is empty.
If you look at the quality of teams Elliott has faced it is largely the elite teams of the league ... 2/3rds of his games have been against playoff bound teams!!
Halak has got most of the powderpuff teams ... and Elliott plays the tough games. I don't know if he is feeling any pressure ... but why wouldn't he against these elite teams.
Arguing with the nos. that Smith is doing better is absurd ... the nos. show Elliott is beating him lights out. As far as a Vezina ... I know he won't win it even if he wins the Stanley Cup for St. Louis ... they just don't hand out Vezina's to "career backups"?

Haven't read through the whole thread, but let me throw out some statistics for those of you who like them.

Elliott: 9 Shutouts in 36 Games
Halak: 6 Shutouts in 45 Games
Smith: 8 Shutouts in 65 Games

On the surface it looks like Elliott and Halak are the better guys with the higher shutout/game ratio. All three of them play on presumably "defensive" systems. Let's dig a little deeper though. Of all these shutouts, let's see how many shots it took for each guy to shut the door on his opponents.

Elliot: 32, 19, 24, 24, 15, 15, 13, 37(OT), 20, 24 = 223 shots faced
Halak: 29, 19, 22, 15, 22, 25 = 132 shots faced
Smith: 31, 26, 38, 28, 42, 38, 44, 54 = 301 shots faced

I'm not sure what kind of defensive system Tippet has in place, but that team does not win those games without Smith standing on his head. His lowest shots faced total is 26 while Elliott only breaches that threshold twice (once in OT) and Halak only does that once. Smith's 54 shot shutout was just icing on the cake last night. Sure people will say it was against Columbus, but Columbus was actually one of the hottest teams in the league for the past few games carrying a very productive line in Umberger, Brassard, Atkinson. Smith has actually been a fairly good goalie throughout his career, but has had to deal with a lot of injury poroblems and "poor team" syndrome.

Given a choice of these three, give me Smith. For my money though, Quick deserves the Vezina as he's had to carry his team on his shoulders since Philly West can't seem to score. That's a whole other thread though

[Casey Jones]

Not sure how you're going to bring up quality of shots cuz it can be argued that Hitch's system pushes teams to the outside just as much if not moreso than Tippet therefore making them easier saves. This point is pretty moot of you to bring up since you don't have any record on how all the teams that both goalies have faced have shot each game. Secondly, I wasn't trying to prove Halak was better than Elliott, so not sure why he had a part in your rebuttal to my post. To say Elliott's playing lights out better...agree to disagree. His stats show that he's doing quite a bit better than most and don't get me wrong I think he's played well with what he's been given, but he's also played about 30 games less than most starter/workhorse goalies in the league. If you put Smith's stats up against the "elite" tenders in the league this year, he's right up there with the Lundqvist, Rinne and Quicks. Lastly, not sure if they hand out the Vezina to career backups or not, but I'm pretty sure they don't hand them out to backups in general or at best 1a goalies with less than 40gp in a season. Guess you'll have to hope that Halak gets injured next year and Elliott can run with the team.

[doulos]

I think we need to lighten up the_slaves. Being the mom of an NHL goalie can be a difficult job.

[the_slaves]

Am I wrong or did you just call me a mother ...

I think we need to lighten up the_slaves. Being the mom of an NHL goalie can be a difficult job.

[the_slaves]

Anyone play Quick last night in their championship playoff week .. my opponent did
Do they still want to nominate Quick for the Vezina?

[Dakkster]

Yeah, one game decides that...