[INSIDER INFO] Carter/LA Talks

[metaldude26]

maybe they are a better team now that giroux has broken out? they should have kept carter and richards and traded for a guy like nabokov.

I dunno. That's hindsight thinking. The reality is the Flyers don't make those moves if there weren't lockerroom problems with Pronger taking over the leadership role on that team superceding Richards and Carter.

I don't think we are talking about Flyers goaltending woes if Pronger was still around.

[fungchen3]

I don't think we are talking about Flyers goaltending woes if Pronger was still around.

This is another point that has been completely lost. How would the Red Wings, Predators or Bruins fare if Lidstrom, Chara or Weber were lost for the entire season with no replacement in sight? The loss on the ice would be significant, but when you factor in that Pronger is the captain of the team with a Cup ring and a ton of respect and experience, his absence stings hard. He is one of the best defensemen in the history of the sports, has been a performer his entire career, logged 25+ minutes a night and made life a lot easier for his team and especially goalie. When Lidstrom retires, if the Wings can't replace him with a Weber or Suter, we're all going to see how much he influenced their defense. Losing a guy like Pronger is a tough pill to swallow.

[TK12555]

Fung, that was awesome. Well done.

[Chuk]

Damn Fung..... They should turn your writeup into a "Sportsnet Special", it is definitely a better perspective and more informative than most of the commentary they have. I really enjoyed the read.

Honestly I feel like a there were poor decisions all around. Management, players, agents and the owner all share a role in this.

With that said, I hope that LA looks a the whole picture and realizes that the Carter/Richards combination might not be the best to create team chemistry, then again, maybe they both will embrace a second chance. Who knows?

The biggest problem I see in LA is a lack of strong leadership and identity. If I were them I would be looking at a a player like Morrow to bring in and help with their mindset and culture. Considering the impact Jagr had in PHI and the influence he had on Giroux and Hartnell, why not take a shot?

Agree that Pronger should have and would have had a different impact if he was healthy and around.

[Loch]

Yes, very well written fungchen.

Whoever is able to pull Richard's and Carter's heads out of their respective asses (if anyone can) could find a good addition to their teams at a reasonable cap hit, but the motivation to change is gonna be tough to impose... I guess we'll see how it turns out.

[Filadelphia]

Thanks for the post fungchen, it was a really good read.

[metaldude26]

This is another point that has been completely lost. How would the Red Wings, Predators or Bruins fare if Lidstrom, Chara or Weber were lost for the entire season with no replacement in sight? The loss on the ice would be significant, but when you factor in that Pronger is the captain of the team with a Cup ring and a ton of respect and experience, his absence stings hard. He is one of the best defensemen in the history of the sports, has been a performer his entire career, logged 25+ minutes a night and made life a lot easier for his team and especially goalie. When Lidstrom retires, if the Wings can't replace him with a Weber or Suter, we're all going to see how much he influenced their defense. Losing a guy like Pronger is a tough pill to swallow.

Yeah Fung great post. I made mine without realizing you'd posted yours.

One of the things I'd be really curious about is just how big a rift there was between Pronger and Richards. I mean, I don't know how much you guys know this but people from Dryden and people from Kenora DO NOT like each other. More over, this whole shenanigans with drinking and partying is all stuff Pronger struggled with early in his career but put behind himself after some real health scares. I wonder how much patience he would have had for stuff like that in the locker room.

[fungchen3]

Honestly I feel like a there were poor decisions all around. Management, players, agents and the owner all share a role in this.

That's why winning is very difficult in professional sports, especially with the salaries players are making today. On one hand, you need to respect them and give them leeway because they are assets and crucial to your success. You need to find the right buttons to push and all ladders of the organization have a different perspective:

The owner is mainly concerned with financial profit and the bottom line. Most owners are in it entirely for the money, although there are a select few like Ed Snider and Terry Pegula who love their teams and want to be successful on and off the ice.

The GM has to treat players like assets, especially in the hard cap era of the NHL. In the Flyers case, that is why Holmgren was so conflicted - he valued Richards and Carter as assets but also realized there were "non-hockey" issues that reared their ugly head. Ultimately the GMs job is to put the best lineup on the ice and he counts on the coach to massage it and make it work. This summer, the Flyers had to do something drastic an unorthodox out of self-preservation - how often do you see a team deal their captain and leading goal scorer who are both in their mid-20s and entering their prime? It's unheard of.

The coach has to be a psychiatrist and figure out what makes his players tick. He needs to get the best out of them as individuals while making sure it moves the entire team forward as a whole.

When each of these individuals have to do their "job", it becomes very hard to complete a perfect puzzle. So, yes, the Flyers organization has to be accountable but I'm a firm believer that the ultimate accountability needs to be placed on the shoulders of the players.

The Flyers tried "being tough", that didn't work. They tried "being respectful and nice" and that didn't work. They tried "bring in help and leadership" and that didn't work. They then tried to be "more disciplined" and that didn't work. At what point do you just say, "These players just won't work here?"

If you read books on hockey, especially profiles on coaches/GMs and team builders (or ex-player bios), there is a common theme that you learn - the difference between very good and great achievers is not usually talent, but dedication, attitude and personality.

[kovalchuk17]

i dont think the kings can fit carter in their cap space situation. even if they can, weve seen what can happen with too many albatross contracts on a team's books

they already have

doughty 7m
kopitar 6.8m
richards 5.75m
jjohnson 4.357
quick potentially 4+
williams 3.65
gagne 3.5
brown 3.175
scuderi 3.4

[TK12555]

i dont think the kings can fit carter in their cap space situation. even if they can, weve seen what can happen with too many albatross contracts on a team's books

they already have

doughty 7m
kopitar 6.8m
richards 5.75m
jjohnson 4.357
quick potentially 4+
williams 3.65
gagne 3.5
brown 3.175
scuderi 3.4

Ya, they'd need to clear up somecap somehow. JJ is off the trading block for now, and Quick will get way more than 4 million!

But in the proposed deal, they'd manage. Stoll makes 3.6 a year, and Bernier 1.25 a year. Considering Penner's contract expires next year along with Mitchell's, they'd find a way around it.

[fungchen3]

One of the things I'd be really curious about is just how big a rift there was between Pronger and Richards.

From what I was told by an individual that was very tied in is that when Pronger arrived, Richards didn't even reach out to him. No phone call or text saying, "Hey glad you're here" or anything. In fact, Richards was very upset that Lupul was traded, especially after they traded his other buddies like Upshall and Eager.

Eventually, it was Pronger who took the first step and made it a point to make time with Richards. He made it clear to Richards that he was willing to help him in any way as far as leading the team went. But it made it clear that it was Richards' team and that he would support him. Richards just always had a "whatever" attitude about it and never even wanted to pick Pronger's brain or learn from him.

From what I understand, Pronger started to become concerned when he observed some of the young players and how they handled their business off the ice and in the training department. As you said, Pronger learned the ropes the hard way, so he could see the writing on the wall as clear as day.

On a couple of occasions Pronger, Timonen and Briere went to Richards and told him as the team captain he needs to get the younger guys in his "group" to buy into the coach's plan. They tried to guide him under both Stevens and Laviolette but Richards just wanted to do his thing - he didn't want to handle the pressure or overtime that came with wearing the letter.

When Laviolette was brought in, I know from a VERY good person, that Laviolette said to Holmgren, "I want to name Pronger the captain immediately" and Holmgren said that was a deal-breaker. Holmgren was going to stand by his guy (Richards) and told Laviolette he needed to make it work but it would be reevaluated in the offseason. Well that year the Flyers made the Finals and all was well but it was being held together by a thread.

Last year, I also know that when Richards showed up to training camp right before it started (while others were there for a while working out and preparing), both Laviolette and Pronger were discouraged that Richards wasn't in great shape and didn't seem like he was excited to be back. Last season a Flyers player (who wouldn't be named) said, "Mike Richards is the most unhappy athlete in the city of Philadelphia."

The straw the broke the camels back from what I understand is when Richards went to Laviolette late last season and said he needed to "ease up" and give the players a break. The veterans then flipped on Richards and told him that you can't just "turn it off and on" and that maybe if he (and the other younger players) were in better shape, they would be able to handle the high-tempo practices better.

That's when the whole thing boiled over. Laviolette felt if he said "no" to Richards that he would lose him altogether and figured that his ONLY shot of being successful was getting Richards to buy-in by cowering to his demands. That's when he issued the whole "Dry Island" thing to make the point - Sure, I'll ease up on you guys, but in order to make sure we're in top shape, we need to limit the booze intake. When Richards (the captain) failed to take the pledge, that's when the vets lost all respect for him and the damage was irreversible.

Richards had a beef with Pronger but it wasn't just with Pronger, it was with most of the vets.

[hockeyfan101]

@ fungchen

That was a great set of posts and dead on. I still can't figure why Holmgren was so afraid of pouty Richards to just strip the "C", and made Pronger captain. Richards was the Worst Captain Ever.

[Flyer Fan]

I think we need to give fungchen a raise!

[fungchen3]

@ fungchen

That was a great set of posts and dead on. I still can't figure why Holmgren was so afraid of pouty Richards to just strip the "C", and made Pronger captain. Richards was the Worst Captain Ever.

The Flyers couldn't strip the C from Richards, he had to be traded. One could argue though, the Flyers were at fault because they handed Richards the letter before they fully realized what type of person (not player) he was. The Flyers made the same mistake with Lindros, who made it clear from day one, he just wanted to be "one of the guys".

With Richards, they felt he has been a leader at every level and was successful. Here's the thing though - leading a team in the OHL or Worlds is a lot different than leading a big market NHL team when you need to captain players who are older than you and have accomplished far more.

Also, you'll see a player's (person's) true colors when they sign a lifetime deal that gives them financial security and they no longer need to dedicate themselves to "earning" that next big contract. I takes a special person (real leader) to be able to stay fully dedicated when they have no financial incentive. As much as it stings coming from a Flyers fan, look at the contrast between someone like Crosby and Richards - Crosby was the best player in the NHL but wanted to improve his faceoff % so he spent a good portion of his summer taking about 1,000 draws a day. Meanwhile, a player like Richards was spending his entire offseason partying it up and binge drinking. Don't get me wrong, it was the "offseason" but that just shows the difference in personality and dedication between two "captains".

Players like Crosby, Lidstrom, Chara, Yzerman, Sakic, etc. are special leaders because NOTHING is more important to them than their team, teammates and being better players. They are dedicated to their craft and all of the fame, money and luxuries come second. Some people are just naturally better leaders and workers - hopefully the Flyers don't make the same mistake yet again when it's time to name a new C to replace Pronger.

[Loch]

The Flyers couldn't strip the C from Richards, he had to be traded.

I don't know that I'd completely agree here, but I can see the arguments to be made for that case. Personally if I'd been GM I would have de-captained him.

Oh, and on your natural leader list your forgot Toews