Giroux/Rinne for Stamkos/Vokoun

[kenzle1r]

I have to agree with MT here. For as good as Giroux is and going to continue to be he's not on Stamkos's level. I peg Stamkos as a 100pts player while Giroux is a PPG guy in my opinion...if we're talking their actual upside (stars align for one season) you can bump each guy 15pts to those totals.

Rinne is clearl the better G in age and pedigree hut to me the key is this is a 8 team league where you should have no problem finding good starters. Even of this is a dynasty league I'd still be inclined to make the deal and roll with Stamkos and Vokoun. Vokoun is older but he's the guy in WAS for at least this year...then you can decide on what you want to do with your G going forward.

Another thing I'll mention is that in my experience leagues with less than 10 teams seem to move G more often than larger league (the fact is there are simply more NHL starters to be had and to make up for loss production in a trade). While guys like Crosby, OV, Malkin and Stamkos are simply hard to acquire. I say go for it.

[blayze]

Sure there's plenty of "decent" options in goal, but "decent" doesn't win championships. There are only 2 goalies who I think stand head and shoulders above the rest... Rinne and Lundqvist. Similar to how Brodeur and Luongo were dominant for so long, I don't see that changing in the next 2-3 years. Rinne and Lundqvist are the two who will start 65-70 games, get 35+ wins AND post elite GAA and SV% figures. If you swapped out Rinne with someone like Price, Luongo or Bryzgalov then my opinion on this deal would be different.

You guys are undervaluing Rinne, who in my opinion is the best goalie in the world right now and for the foreseeable future. In a league where goalie performance accounts for 40% of your scoring categories, it is a HUGE advantage to lock up one of these two guys... more so than locking up Stamkos, who's production can be more evenly spread out amongst multiple forwards.

And let's be real guys... you need to give Giroux his due... he IS going to drop 100 points and become a superstar at some point.

[27Blue]

Sure there's plenty of "decent" options in goal, but "decent" doesn't win championships...

You guys are undervaluing Rinne, who in my opinion is the best goalie in the world right now and for the foreseeable future. In a league where goalie performance accounts for 40% of your scoring categories, it is a HUGE advantage to lock up one of these two guys... more so than locking up Stamkos, who's production can be more evenly spread out amongst multiple forwards.

my thoughts exactly...

[MT319]

I have to agree with MT here. For as good as Giroux is and going to continue to be he's not on Stamkos's level. I peg Stamkos as a 100pts player while Giroux is a PPG guy in my opinion...if we're talking their actual upside (stars align for one season) you can bump each guy 15pts to those totals.

Rinne is clearl the better G in age and pedigree hut to me the key is this is a 8 team league where you should have no problem finding good starters. Even of this is a dynasty league I'd still be inclined to make the deal and roll with Stamkos and Vokoun. Vokoun is older but he's the guy in WAS for at least this year...then you can decide on what you want to do with your G going forward.

Another thing I'll mention is that in my experience leagues with less than 10 teams seem to move G more often than larger league (the fact is there are simply more NHL starters to be had and to make up for loss production in a trade). While guys like Crosby, OV, Malkin and Stamkos are simply hard to acquire. I say go for it.

I'm impressed, someone on here utilizing common sense for a change, give yourself a pat on the back guy. Here's some positive rep your way to off-set the inevitable negative you got for that opening sentence.

[blayze]

Ironically, Rinne put Vokoun in his place last night. Just thought I'd point that out

[iamlilc]

Without the OP adding any details regarding how many keepers you keep and positions, it's harder to evaluate the true worth of these players.

In an 8 team keeper, I'm guessing that you have to start 2 goalies a day/week. In this case goalies are more valuable as the yearly draft or FA pool is slim as each team will most-likely have at least 3.

But like I said earlier, the Stamkos/Vokoun side will most-likely be better this year and possibly next depending on where Vokoun signs.

With that being said, I am a firm believer that Giroux will hit 100 pts by the end of next season.

[echoboomer]

Sure there's plenty of "decent" options in goal, but "decent" doesn't win championships. There are only 2 goalies who I think stand head and shoulders above the rest... Rinne and Lundqvist. Similar to how Brodeur and Luongo were dominant for so long, I don't see that changing in the next 2-3 years.

underlined to prove MT's point. How long has it been since Luongo was dominant Blayze?

How many option on that top list 2 years ago would've been there. Not many I assure you just like 2 years from now that top tier will not look like it does now either. Stamkos-Vokoun is the route to take for a lll you know Stamkos hits his 120 upside and Cedric Desjardins is Marc-Andre Fleury V2 two seasons from now and Al Montoya top tier G for all you know. G is very easy to make up in an 8 man keep

And this:

Stamkos-Vokoun short-term and one of Bernier/Schneider/Markstom/Neuvirth-Holtby is definitely better than Giroux-Rinne no question.

Anyone picking Giroux/Rinne side is saying that none of those kids (or any other current '2nd tier' goalie) will rival Rinne in the next few years. I disagree.

[blayze]

"Originally Posted by blayze
Sure there's plenty of "decent" options in goal, but "decent" doesn't win championships. There are only 2 goalies who I think stand head and shoulders above the rest... Rinne and Lundqvist. Similar to how Brodeur and Luongo were dominant for so long, I don't see that changing in the next 2-3 years."

underlined to prove MT's point. How long has it been since Luongo was dominant Blayze?

How does that prove MT's point? MT's point was that elite goaltenders are fickle and change from year to year, and MY point was that there are elite goaltenders who stay dominant for long periods of time - using Luongo and Brodeur as examples. It's irrelevant how long it's been since Luongo was dominant.

Learn to use logic before you embarrass yourself in future posts.

[echoboomer]

How does that prove MT's point? MT's point was that elite goaltenders are fickle and change from year to year, and MY point was that there are elite goaltenders who stay dominant for long periods of time - using Luongo and Brodeur as examples. It's irrelevant how long it's been since Luongo was dominant.

Learn to use logic before you embarrass yourself in future posts.

Whoa whoa whoa. Can we keep it civil?

I think my logic was self-evident. Sorry you feel otherwise.

[kenzle1r]

Obviously guys have very strong opinions on this trade which I think it makes for a great debate. I'd like to point out my reasoning for preferring the Stamkos/Vokoun side.

1. It is nearly impossible to acquire a top 5 F like Stamkos without having to overpay. My opnion is that this isn't overpaying for him and that it's actually quite fair so I favour owning a "scarce" player like Stamkos over the others involved in the deal.

2. Rinne is a stud. No debate there. All I'm suggesting is that in an 8-team league there are only going to be 8 starters (now I'm assuming you start 1 G a night unlike some of the other posters who assume you start 2 a night.).

3. In my experience with leagues that have under 10 teams, G are more prone to be moved or added in deals because quality starters are less scarce than in bigger leagues. Top 5 talents like Stamkos aren't "more scarce" in larger leagues...it is what it is.

Now don't get it twisted. I'm not suggesting that Rinne isn't a stud. All I'm saying is that his value (and ALL other G) is diminished the by the size of the league. If you do start 2 G a night then this basically makes it a 16-team league (or comparable at least) and G are more valuable but my argument is solely for the purpose of my assumption of 1 starter a night.

4. The G position is the most fickle and hardest to predict. Yes there are studs and yes they typically do exactly what you hope they will year in and year out. But I think we can agree that it's the position that is the most reliable on his teammates performances.

5. Many have posted that they feel Giroux is going to be a 100pts player in the NHL (some say as soon as next year). Well I strongly believe that he will never hit that mark and I'm prepared to eat my words if he ever does. The fact is, guys on this site inflate projections...I do the same frankly. I personally believe that a reasonable "career" projection for Giroux is a PPG player. Why? Lets look at the facts. How many 100pts seasons have we seen in the last 4 years? 10! That's it...and most of those are from the same players doing multiple times (OV, Malkin, Crosby)...then you have the 1 offs like D. Sedin, Backstrom, etc...

It's very difficult to reach that milestone and I don't believe Giroux is in that tier.

No matter you break it down or analyze this deal I think it's actually quite close. I've given you the reasons why I prefer the Stamkos side and others have shared why they like the Giroux/Rinne side. It really boils down to preference.

[Dutch]

Blayze you are absolutely right buddy.


MT, especially lately, has been nothing but wrong with his comments. At least in my opinion he has been.

Seriously, you would take Stamkos/Vokoun over Rinne/Giroux?

It's MUCH MUCH easier to make up points on forwards, than it is on goalies. You NEED elite goalies to have a better shot at the title than you do elite forwards.

To call Stamkos top 5 fwds is silly as well. He's good, but he's definitely in the same class as Giroux. I'd say top 10 for both. Stamkos plays with St.Louis, and is merely a by product of the situations, wheras Giroux does it by himself.

There is a reason Stamkos isn't the Stamkos from last year. Much like Ovechkin, people have figured out his 2 pony tricks. Giroux could probably get to that as well in the future, but right now Giroux easily over Stamkos.

Vokoun also splits his duties much more than Rinne, so the choice for Rinne/Giroux is pretty easy.

[csawce]

I gotta go with Stammer and Vokoun. I believe the difference between Stamkos and Giroux is greater than the difference between Rinne and Vokoun. I totally understand that Rinne is the better goaltender but with Vokoun in Wash (a highly successful and now defensive team) he has a much easier time succeeding and possibly earning some great numbers when he performs like Rinne for some games here and there.

Good Luck

[kenzle1r]

Blayze you are absolutely right buddy.


MT, especially lately, has been nothing but wrong with his comments. At least in my opinion he has been.

Seriously, you would take Stamkos/Vokoun over Rinne/Giroux?

It's MUCH MUCH easier to make up points on forwards, than it is on goalies. You NEED elite goalies to have a better shot at the title than you do elite forwards.

To call Stamkos top 5 fwds is silly as well. He's good, but he's definitely in the same class as Giroux. I'd say top 10 for both. Stamkos plays with St.Louis, and is merely a by product of the situations, wheras Giroux does it by himself.

There is a reason Stamkos isn't the Stamkos from last year. Much like Ovechkin, people have figured out his 2 pony tricks. Giroux could probably get to that as well in the future, but right now Giroux easily over Stamkos.

Vokoun also splits his duties much more than Rinne, so the choice for Rinne/Giroux is pretty easy.

Dutch I have to disagree with saying that Stammer is in the same class as Giroux. What are you basing this on?

Look at the facts:

Stamkos is 21...played 3 full seasons and has rattled off two consecutive 90+ pts (45+ G) seasons.

So far this season, in 17 games, he's currently on pace for a 87pts season with 53 G. He's a proven stud. unlike Giroux...

Giroux is 23...played 2 full season and has rattled only one "good" season (last year with 25 G and 76pts.)

So far this season, in the same 17 games, he currently on pace for 106pts with 53 G. However, we've seen this before...how did Kopitar do after a strong start last year?

All I'm saying is that it's absolutely ridiculous to say that these two are in the same tier based on their previous production. Stamkos has St Lous...so what! What has St Louis done this year?

Stamkos is a stud. And Giroux is great, but not even close to Stammer.

[Dutch]

Dutch I have to disagree with saying that Stammer is in the same class as Giroux. What are you basing this on?

Look at the facts:

Stamkos is 21...played 3 full seasons and has rattled off two consecutive 90+ pts (45+ G) seasons.

So far this season, in 17 games, he's currently on pace for a 87pts season with 53 G. He's a proven stud. unlike Giroux...

Giroux is 23...played 2 full season and has rattled only one "good" season (last year with 25 G and 76pts.)

So far this season, in the same 17 games, he currently on pace for 106pts with 53 G. However, we've seen this before...how did Kopitar do after a strong start last year?

All I'm saying is that it's absolutely ridiculous to say that these two are in the same tier based on their previous production. Stamkos has St Lous...so what! What has St Louis done this year?

Stamkos is a stud. And Giroux is great, but not even close to Stammer.

I base it MAINLY by watching both play...

When I see Giroux, I see someone who makes things happen for himself. When I see Stamkos, I only see someone who has a hard one timer with sick setup passes from everyone else who makes anything happen.

We won't find out who's better until st.louis and lecavalier are gone in Tampa, and we only see Stamkos there, but I seriously think his stats are a bit inflated by his line/teammates, whereas Giroux proves to me that HE is the one making it all happen in Philly.

And by same tier I really meant, both top 10. But neither top 5

[kenzle1r]

I base it MAINLY by watching both play...

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass but if we're talking about a man crush then ya I'm all for this type of analysis. But if we're talking about analyzing a trade for fantasy hockey purposes then I'll stick to statistics and trends.

Also, I don't see Giroux as a top 10 player. Is he good? YES. Is he elite? Not yet. I put him in the same category/tier as a guy like Kopitar, Tavares or even B. Ryan (although he's a little lower). They show us flashes of greatness but haven't been able to sustain that "elite" level over the course of an entire season.

I won't argue with over you Stammer getting help from his linemates BUT he was chosen #1 overall for a reason. He's an elite talent in every sense of the word.