Top 10 Goalies - with a twist?

[jhonny]

Here's Dobber's Top 30 Goalies (per his ranking stipulations - I understand):

1 Roberto Luongo
2 Carey Price
3 Henrik Lundqvist
4 Ilja Bryzgalov
5 Marc-Andre Fleury
6 Ryan Miller
7 Jonathan Quick
8 Jimmy Howard
9 Tim Thomas
10 Antti Niemi
11 Pekka Rinne
12 Sergei Bobrovsky
13 Cory Schneider
14 Jaroslav Halak
15 Kari Lehtonen
16 Corey Crawford
17 Cam Ward
18 Miikka Kiprusoff
19 Michal Neuvirth
20 Steve Mason
21 Tuukka Rask
22 Jonas Hiller
23 Ondrej Pavelec
24 Jonathan Bernier
25 Craig Anderson
26 Niklas Backstrom
27 James Reimer
28 Tomas Vokoun
29 Jacob Markstrom
30 Simeon Varlamov


Here are how the Top 16 placed this year in my league:

1 Ward
2 Price
3 Thomas
4 Lundqvist
5 Bryzgalov
6 Rinne
7 Luongo
8 Lehtonen
9 Miller
10 Kiprusoff
11 Niemi
12 Fleury
13 Howard
14 Quick
15 Crawford
16 Vokoun


My question is how to decipher the best Top 10 in my league... reason being, I have a chance at trading Bryzgalov for Ward straight-up. I see this is as an easy decision for a few reasons... His signing is still a question mark, I am not sold on his skill set - given the defensive system he played with in PHO, even if he does sign, there will be pressure to play BOB at least 20-25 games...not to mention the Philly pressure he will receive on a day to day basis... remember, PHO hardly knew they even had an NHL team in their town... Lastly, Ward is very good... good enough to finish 1st in my league for goalie fantasy points... now imagine Carolina can win 5-7 more games this season and crack the top 8.

Here are the top 10 in my mind... I'm posting this thread to see how others might tweak it and for what reasons:

1 Lundqvist
2 Ward
3 Price
4 Rinne
5 Miller
6 Luongo
7 Bryzgalov (assuming he does sign with Philly)
8 Fleury
9 Thomas
10 Vokoun (the reason I showed the top 16 and not top 15 ranked goalies for points in my league as I have him in my top 10)

To me... this is the best case scenario for Bryz next season... MUCH MUCH worse can happen to him given all the new variables (new team, new system, new city, new contract...if he even gets a contract...)

Please have at it fellas...and any dobberchicks that play...

[VincentVega]

To be honest, I don't put much stock in Dobber's goalie rankings. Any ranking that has Vokoun rated 28th is a joke. Yeah I know he plays for one of the worst teams but other than Wins, he shines in every other goalie stat. Also, Bob at 12th??? Are you kidding me? Halak, Ward, Kipper, etc. rated lower is just funny. And Lundqvist should not be below Price, no way at this time.

As far as Ward vs. Bryzgalov, I agree that Ward is preferred slightly right now given all the unknowns surrounding Bryzgalov. But only slightly. I would be happy with either goalie. I'm guessing the reason Ward finished higher than Bryzgalov was due to his higher Saves count? Otherwise, they have similar stats.

[jhonny]

To be honest, I don't put much stock in Dobber's goalie rankings. Any ranking that has Vokoun rated 28th is a joke. Yeah I know he plays for one of the worst teams but other than Wins, he shines in every other goalie stat. Also, Bob at 12th??? Are you kidding me? Halak, Ward, Kipper, etc. rated lower is just funny. And Lundqvist should not be below Price, no way at this time.

As far as Ward vs. Bryzgalov, I agree that Ward is preferred slightly right now given all the unknowns surrounding Bryzgalov. But only slightly. I would be happy with either goalie. I'm guessing the reason Ward finished higher than Bryzgalov was due to his higher Saves count? Otherwise, they have similar stats.

Thanks VV....yeah, they weren't too far off (Ward had 565 pts and Bryz had 535). I think I'm just lookin for security right now after my last two seasons trying to run with Rask, and Price before that. If I stick to Bryz and he holds out or heads to KHL, then I'm screwed.

[ridinryan44]

To be honest, I don't put much stock in Dobber's goalie rankings. Any ranking that has Vokoun rated 28th is a joke. Yeah I know he plays for one of the worst teams but other than Wins, he shines in every other goalie stat. Also, Bob at 12th??? Are you kidding me? Halak, Ward, Kipper, etc. rated lower is just funny. And Lundqvist should not be below Price, no way at this time.

As far as Ward vs. Bryzgalov, I agree that Ward is preferred slightly right now given all the unknowns surrounding Bryzgalov. But only slightly. I would be happy with either goalie. I'm guessing the reason Ward finished higher than Bryzgalov was due to his higher Saves count? Otherwise, they have similar stats.

I think you're forgetting the age factor??? It's keeper league value which means a good YOUNG goaltender gets a way better ranking than a good OLD goaltender. If you use the guidelines given than maybe how the rankings work will become clearer. It's a base model with which you apply your own needs based on your league and go from there...a league that counts peripheral stats compared to one that simply counts wins will be way different. Also, a yearly league (which is where Vokoun's value jumps tremendously) will see much different rankings.

I don't think you'll see anyone trade one of the younger goalies for Vokoun in a keeper league...

[ridinryan44]

Thanks VV....yeah, they weren't too far off (Ward had 565 pts and Bryz had 535). I think I'm just lookin for security right now after my last two seasons trying to run with Rask, and Price before that. If I stick to Bryz and he holds out or heads to KHL, then I'm screwed.

I don't think you need to worry about Bryz heading out of town. That being said, if it does worry you, I would have no problem trading Bryz for Ward. Ward has been good and Carolina is only getting better... Other than that, hold on to Bryz if you have the patience, he isn't going to sign with a team not in a position to win...

[jhonny]

My pending trade just became a four GM event unbeknownst (is this a word?) to me... but it seems as though we gotta deal.

Onemanwolfpack.... is that 4th GM you???? punk!


Before I pull the trigger... Does anyone think I shouldn't trade Bryz for Ward?

I just turned this thread into a request for help ASAP... I can feel the buyer's remorse setting in already... I get that when I buy a pack of gum though, so I've learned to ignore it most of the time now...

Thanks!

[ridinryan44]

My pending trade just became a four GM event unbeknownst (is this a word?) to me... but it seems as though we gotta deal.

Onemanwolfpack.... is that 4th GM you???? punk!


Before I pull the trigger... Does anyone think I shouldn't trade Bryz for Ward?

I just turned this thread into a request for help ASAP... I can feel the buyer's remorse setting in already... I get that when I buy a pack of gum though, so I've learned to ignore it most of the time now...

Thanks!

If you wanna go the safe route, than pull the trigger. If you wanna take a chance that could pay off big, than hold tight. Bryz in Philly will be disgusting if it comes to fruition....Personally, I'd stick with Bryz as I believe he will be a Flyer.

[VincentVega]

I think you're forgetting the age factor??? It's keeper league value which means a good YOUNG goaltender gets a way better ranking than a good OLD goaltender. If you use the guidelines given than maybe how the rankings work will become clearer. It's a base model with which you apply your own needs based on your league and go from there...a league that counts peripheral stats compared to one that simply counts wins will be way different. Also, a yearly league (which is where Vokoun's value jumps tremendously) will see much different rankings.

I don't think you'll see anyone trade one of the younger goalies for Vokoun in a keeper league...

Sure I can understand it's a different kind of ranking and I'm disagreeing wth it. For example, Bob isn't even a number one goalie. He played just over half a year as a starter and he's already ranked 12th. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. I for one would prefer Vokoun over Bob. Or Reimer or Schneider or Lehtonen to name just a few obvious ones on the list. I think there is a gross overemphasis on unproven youth here. Vokoun is only 34, he still has a few good years left in him.

[ridinryan44]

Sure I can understand it's a different kind of ranking and I'm disagreeing wth it. For example, Bob isn't even a number one goalie. He played just over half a year as a starter and he's already ranked 12th. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. I for one would prefer Vokoun over Bob. Or Reimer or Schneider or Lehtonen to name just a few obvious ones on the list. I think there is a gross overemphasis on unproven youth here. Vokoun is only 34, he still has a few good years left in him.

Right, a few good years. That's the exact reason why he is ranked lower. You can't set guidelines and then step outside of them based on a whim. You are correct, BOB isn't a number one goaltender, but tell me how many GM's that you will find who will trade BOB for less than a starter's price... probably not many. It's trade value, not necessarily his play value.

[ridinryan44]

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. I for one would prefer Vokoun over Bob. Or Reimer or Schneider or Lehtonen to name just a few obvious ones on the list. I think there is a gross overemphasis on unproven youth here. Vokoun is only 34, he still has a few good years left in him.

And you are bang on with this assessment IF a few things are in place:

A: you are competing to win - rebuilding with Vokoun doesn't make a lot of sense

b: you are in a one year league

c: you play with peripheral stats - as of right now, vokoun doesn't do much for you in a league that counts WINS. He does well, but not great. Vokoun gets a huge boost in value if you count peripherals.


You are completely accurate in saying Vokoun has more value than the aforementioned goalies, as long as your situation suits it. I'm in a 8 team keeper league and even to competitive teams that need a tender, they aren't willing to pay much for Vokoun because A: he's old and B: where the eff is he gonna play next year? He just doesn't carry the same TRADE VALUE that a lot of other goalies do. Will he have better stats than most of them? **** ya, but that's not what the goalie rankings are representing. It's unfair to bitch about the rankings if you're not utilizing them for what they are....

[VincentVega]

Right, a few good years. That's the exact reason why he is ranked lower. You can't set guidelines and then step outside of them based on a whim. You are correct, BOB isn't a number one goaltender, but tell me how many GM's that you will find who will trade BOB for less than a starter's price... probably not many. It's trade value, not necessarily his play value.

I'm certain that most GM's would trade Bob now for any one of the goalies listed below him down to rank 28.

[VincentVega]

And you are bang on with this assessment IF a few things are in place:

A: you are competing to win - rebuilding with Vokoun doesn't make a lot of sense

b: you are in a one year league

c: you play with peripheral stats - as of right now, vokoun doesn't do much for you in a league that counts WINS. He does well, but not great. Vokoun gets a huge boost in value if you count peripherals.


You are completely accurate in saying Vokoun has more value than the aforementioned goalies, as long as your situation suits it. I'm in a 8 team keeper league and even to competitive teams that need a tender, they aren't willing to pay much for Vokoun because A: he's old and B: where the eff is he gonna play next year? He just doesn't carry the same TRADE VALUE that a lot of other goalies do. Will he have better stats than most of them? **** ya, but that's not what the goalie rankings are representing. It's unfair to bitch about the rankings if you're not utilizing them for what they are....

Good point. Just for the record, I wasn't bitching about the rankings, just saying I don't find them useful for my purposes. I did assume that not only Wins matter but also peripherals(there aren't too many pools that count Wins only), and also that most GM's care about the next 3-4 years.

[ridinryan44]

I'm certain that most GM's would trade Bob now for any one of the goalies listed below him down to rank 28.

Bang on, because most of those goalies listed below will fit into the mold of what BOB was doing for their team when he was the starter for Philly. While his value will definitely drop a bit, I doubt your gonna find anyone who's gonna give him up for too much less until they find out what's gonna happen with him.

[ridinryan44]

Good point. Just for the record, I wasn't bitching about the rankings, just saying I don't find them useful for my purposes. I did assume that not only Wins matter but also peripherals(there aren't too many pools that count Wins only), and also that most GM's care about the next 3-4 years.

SOrry, maybe shoulda worded it differently. There's been a lot of misinterpretation of the rankings before so was just trying to make clear how the rankings work... it took me a while to figure it all out and now that I've gotter figured I can make my own decisions based on these rankings.