May 21 - The Apocalypse

[mister_mcgoo]

Very verbose post by MT, I think perhaps some stuff got lost in the mix... Let me try to answer some of your questions more directly:

Many people who believe in one "generic" Supernatural entity fall into a thought process that..."I didn't kill anyone, so I'm going to Heaven". You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard that. So, with that in mind, if you commit a wrong doing short of murder (rape, bank robbery, drug mule) - then you've got a ticket in?

In response to that I would ask you first to look inward to your own religion and ask the same question...Catholicism says that we are born with 'original sin' an if you aren't baptised you are destined for hell, Chrtistianity in general says that as long as you accept Jesus into your heart you are cleansed of all evil deeds in your entire lifetime but if you choose not to (even having led an exemplary Mother-Theresa type existence based on love and forgiveness) you are still destined for guess where? HELL once again. Does that not seem a little kooky to you? It just doesn't add up for me... I don't know if there is a heaven or a hell, but my take on it is that if there is then there is no such thing as a 'free-ride' just by virtue of having picked the right 'team' (i.e. religion) to play for, if there is in fact a heaven and a hell then your soul will be weighed in the balance and your sins weighed against your good deeds, and that will decide your ultimate fate, not some arbitrary bullshit. Call it karma, call it what you will, but you reap what you sow, its just that simple to me.

The socetial perception of what makes a "good person" had radically changed over decades. A century ago, if you divorced your wife (or husband), or ended up going to jail you were the worst person on the face of the planet. Nowadays, it's a commonplace for Divorce, and noone bats an eyelash. Society's understanding of what a good guy is has lowered the bar over time. God's bar has never changed. But, to be fair, people's interpretation has.

Has it? I don't know how you evaluate people but I can usually read a person in about 30 secs and tell you whether they are a good person, a bad person or just sort of neutral. It makes no difference what religion they profess (or don't profess), it makes no difference their class, their race, whether they are divorced, married or single, gay, straight or transgendered, old, young, stupid or brilliant, whatever. Its much more base and simple than that and it has nothing to do with societal norms or perceptions. I think most people in this world are not good people, they are selfish and cutthroat given the opportunity, I think a good part of that is basic biological wiring, the saying 'nice guys finish last' is often the case on an evolutionary scale.

Like I was saying though, there are some pretty vocal athiests out there, and that's ok. I'm not looking for a debate. A bunch of great posters out there who I enjoy reading. Do I like them less because they don't believe? Absolutely not.

I'm agnostic, not atheist. I don't discount the possibility of a supreme being, I simply dismiss all the piss-poor attempts by mankind to define the nature and design of such a being because they are inherently flawed and self-serving. I was raised Catholic and began questioning the whole charade when I hit puberty and started learning the appaling history of the Roman Catholic church. To me its simple, if good and evil are in fact true constructs (and not just the fabrications of man) then good cannot come of evil period... and the Roman Catholic church has been a bastion of evil and pain and suffering for millenia. Any organization that tacitly (or otherwise) condones the abuse and molestation of children is nothing I want anything to do with, you can keep that mess thank you very much!

This thread has morphed into a metaphysical-religious debate, kind of interesting but sort of bizarre to find on a fantasy hockey site!

[ericdaoust]

This thread has morphed into a metaphysical-religious debate, kind of interesting but sort of bizarre to find on a fantasy hockey site!

I don't think it's bizarre to find on a fantasy hockey site. Every forum that has an off-topic section has tons of political and/or religious debate. The off-topic place is where people are just themselves and speak their minds.

IMO this is a great thread where plenty of points of view have been expressed and has not (yet) turned violent. Like I said in a prior post, I believe a person's beliefs are irrelevant to his/her functioning and usefulness in life. We all basically live by the same rules regardless of faith.

[Chico Resch]

Very verbose post by MT, I think perhaps some stuff got lost in the mix... Let me try to answer some of your questions more directly:



In response to that I would ask you first to look inward to your own religion and ask the same question...Catholicism says that we are born with 'original sin' an if you aren't baptised you are destined for hell, Chrtistianity in general says that as long as you accept Jesus into your heart you are cleansed of all evil deeds in your entire lifetime but if you choose not to (even having led an exemplary Mother-Theresa type existence based on love and forgiveness) you are still destined for guess where? HELL once again. Does that not seem a little kooky to you? It just doesn't add up for me... I don't know if there is a heaven or a hell, but my take on it is that if there is then there is no such thing as a 'free-ride' just by virtue of having picked the right 'team' (i.e. religion) to play for, if there is in fact a heaven and a hell then your soul will be weighed in the balance and your sins weighed against your good deeds, and that will decide your ultimate fate, not some arbitrary bullshit. Call it karma, call it what you will, but you reap what you sow, its just that simple to me.



Has it? I don't know how you evaluate people but I can usually read a person in about 30 secs and tell you whether they are a good person, a bad person or just sort of neutral. It makes no difference what religion they profess (or don't profess), it makes no difference their class, their race, whether they are divorced, married or single, gay, straight or transgendered, old, young, stupid or brilliant, whatever. Its much more base and simple than that and it has nothing to do with societal norms or perceptions. I think most people in this world are not good people, they are selfish and cutthroat given the opportunity, I think a good part of that is basic biological wiring, the saying 'nice guys finish last' is often the case on an evolutionary scale.



I'm agnostic, not atheist. I don't discount the possibility of a supreme being, I simply dismiss all the piss-poor attempts by mankind to define the nature and design of such a being because they are inherently flawed and self-serving. I was raised Catholic and began questioning the whole charade when I hit puberty and started learning the appaling history of the Roman Catholic church. To me its simple, if good and evil are in fact true constructs (and not just the fabrications of man) then good cannot come of evil period... and the Roman Catholic church has been a bastion of evil and pain and suffering for millenia. Any organization that tacitly (or otherwise) condones the abuse and molestation of children is nothing I want anything to do with, you can keep that mess thank you very much!

This thread has morphed into a metaphysical-religious debate, kind of interesting but sort of bizarre to find on a fantasy hockey site!

I agree with MT's post. VERY verbose! There is one smart fella.

Don't confuse Christianity with Religion. I too used to be Catholic, and said NO to it. Now, while there are some who happily choose to, that's not me. And I certainly don't want to put down their choice - but being a Catholic is DEFINITELY not where I want to be.

Organized Religion puts their own rules on an even level with what the Bible says. That, in my opinion is a load of crap. Here's why.

Baptism - it's intended to be a public declaration of your belief of Jesus, and coming into the family of God. A)How can a 2 month old baby make their own decision? B)The Bible makes NO mention of this whatsoever, it's always ADULTS who DECIDE C)If my memory serves me correctly, it was Constantine (Ruler of the Roman Empire) who made this official. The belief was, w/o baptism, you'd go to hell. Babies were dying all the time, so do the baptism ASAP, then that covers them. An absolutely silly thought - in my opinion.

Confession - If God can take away your sin, why go to a Priest? He's no in more with God than anyone else. It's not as if he has the Batphone with J.C.

Communion - Catholics believe if you're not of their "faction" then you don't get Communion. You're Catholic - or you're nothing....

Purgatory - not even found in the Bible. It was created as an idea for those "ok" people. Hell is reserved for the lowest of the low. Heaven is reserved for the heavyweights, Championing for the cause of God (Moses, Paul, Peter, etc). So those morally decent guys have somewhere to go.

It was good that you question these things....Don't accept these things as you were taught. Don't be led to the slaughter (as a figure of speech, of course). Heck, there are some things about God that I don't understand.

So, as you can see, I feel there is a HUGE difference between the two.

[PrairieDog]

I could and have written pages on the subject, but I will spare you all from it. I also don't have the energy right now :P

Instead, I will just share a few quotes that I think capture it quite well (and succinctly):

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
-Sir Richard Francis Burton

All religions have this in common: that they are an outrage to common sense, for they are pieced together out of a variety of elements, some of which seem so unworthy, sordid and at odds with mans' reason that any strong and vigorous intelligence laughs at them.
- Pierre Charron (1541-1603)

What kind of a God is it that is upset by a cartoon in Danish?
- Salman Rushdie

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen F. Roberts

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-Thomas Paine

A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.
-Vique's Law

Religions are illogical primitive ignorance. There is nothing as ridiculous and tragic as a religious government.
-Leon Trotsky

Nothing is more dangerous than a
dogmatic worldview - nothing more constraining, more blinding to
innovation, more destructive of openness to novelty.
- Stephen Jay Gould

When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.
-Peter O'Toole

The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the Sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the Sun.
- Thomas Paine

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery.
- Robert G. Ingersol

If this is the best that God can do, then I am not impressed.
- George Carlin

The time has come for people of reason to say enough is enough. Religious faith discourages independent thought, it's devicive, and it's dangerous.
-Richard Dawkins

No actual tyrant known to history has ever been guilty of one-hundredth of the crimes, massacres, and other atrocities attributed to the deity in the Bible.
-Steve Allen

If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm and deceit adorned them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them; and that custom, respect and tyranny support them; in order to make the blindness of men serve their own interests. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to the gods, the knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them.
- Baron D'Holbach (1723-1789)

[Humans] never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
-Blaise Pascal

Civilisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.
-Emile Zola

May God protect you from his followers.
-PrairieDog

[mister_mcgoo]

I agree with MT's post. VERY verbose! There is one smart fella.

Don't confuse Christianity with Religion. I too used to be Catholic, and said NO to it. Now, while there are some who happily choose to, that's not me. And I certainly don't want to put down their choice - but being a Catholic is DEFINITELY not where I want to be.

Organized Religion puts their own rules on an even level with what the Bible says. That, in my opinion is a load of crap. Here's why.

Baptism - it's intended to be a public declaration of your belief of Jesus, and coming into the family of God. A)How can a 2 month old baby make their own decision? B)The Bible makes NO mention of this whatsoever, it's always ADULTS who DECIDE C)If my memory serves me correctly, it was Constantine (Ruler of the Roman Empire) who made this official. The belief was, w/o baptism, you'd go to hell. Babies were dying all the time, so do the baptism ASAP, then that covers them. An absolutely silly thought - in my opinion.

Confession - If God can take away your sin, why go to a Priest? He's no in more with God than anyone else. It's not as if he has the Batphone with J.C.

Communion - Catholics believe if you're not of their "faction" then you don't get Communion. You're Catholic - or you're nothing....

Purgatory - not even found in the Bible. It was created as an idea for those "ok" people. Hell is reserved for the lowest of the low. Heaven is reserved for the heavyweights, Championing for the cause of God (Moses, Paul, Peter, etc). So those morally decent guys have somewhere to go.

It was good that you question these things....Don't accept these things as you were taught. Don't be led to the slaughter (as a figure of speech, of course). Heck, there are some things about God that I don't understand.

So, as you can see, I feel there is a HUGE difference between the two.

Haha, rest assured dude im not confusing the two. I was merely responding to your initial post where you declared yourself to be a Christian and then went on to mention concepts such as confession and communion so I was couching my reply in the same vein. If you want me to point out how absurd and self-serving and man-made a different religion is then by all means throw another one into the mix and im happy to oblige. They're all inherently flawed but they do seem to provide comfort to some folks so far be it for me to denigrate that aspect of organized religion. What I am troubled with is the cult-like allegiance many subscribe to that turns what should be a peaceful and supportive institution into no more than a raving mob that has tasted blood