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Thread: Generational Players?

  1. #16
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    Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid coming next. That's my entire list.

    Orr and Lidstrom are definitely the best defensemen of their eras. Maybe you can call them generational defensemen but they don't crack my generational player list.

    Maybe I'm being tough with my use of the term but I do think the term gets thrown around way too easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid coming next. That's my entire list.

    Orr and Lidstrom are definitely the best defensemen of their eras. Maybe you can call them generational defensemen but they don't crack my generational player list.

    Maybe I'm being tough with my use of the term but I do think the term gets thrown around way too easily.
    Well, there's more than that, you're ignoring the first 70 years of Hockey for one. considering D is a much harder position to play - to do what Orr did, he was clearly generational.

    I think you need to * this with 'since 1977. I find it almost impossible to fathom there never having been a generational player that has not played forward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    Well, there's more than that, you're ignoring the first 70 years of Hockey for one. considering D is a much harder position to play - to do what Orr did, he was clearly generational.

    I think you need to * this with 'since 1977. I find it almost impossible to fathom there never having been a generational player that has not played forward.
    I was born in 1987. Didn't watch much hockey before 1977. Not sure how many of us here watched hockey during the first 50 years of the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    I was born in 1987. Didn't watch much hockey before 1977. Not sure how many of us here watched hockey during the first 50 years of the league.
    Born in '87 is one thing A simple statement or admission that you're limiting your list to your lifetime would help.

    Ignoring 70 years of hockey because you weren't alive for it is another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    Born in '87 is one thing A simple statement or admission that you're limiting your list to your lifetime would help.

    Ignoring 70 years of hockey because you weren't alive for it is another.
    I said "That's MY entire list". Assigning generational player tags to players I've never watched would be foolish. That's like scouting through stat pages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    I said "That's MY entire list". Assigning generational player tags to players I've never watched would be foolish. That's like scouting through stat pages.
    you're assuming readers know you've limited your list based on your age. Hence why I suggested adding the * because it was clear you were limiting your list, but no one knew why. I gave you the olive branch to clarify yourself. I'm not sure why you're digging in and trying to create an argument
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    you're assuming readers know you've limited your list based on your age. Hence why I suggested adding the * because it was clear you were limiting your list, but no one knew why. I gave you the olive branch to clarify yourself. I'm not sure why you're digging in and trying to create an argument
    Sure. I didn't realize I needed to explain I'm not 120 years old but it's clarified now. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    Sure. I didn't realize I needed to explain I'm not 120 years old but it's clarified now. Thanks.
    Again, no one on here is... but that doesn't mean EVERYONE limits their list to their own generation or age. Some are historians of the game and will have older players on their list. You're a smart guy, you don't need the sarcasm. Not sure where the chip-on-the-shoulder is coming from. I think my first post saying **limiting my list - was fair. But if you're going to limit your list - only makes sense to provide a reason.

    Anyway, back to the actual discussion -
    Lidstrom should be considered a generational player. We haven't had such a complete Dman since in the NHL. 7 Norris Trophy's? If he's not considered due to his career offensive numbers, then his overall, complete game needs to be. As good as he was with the puck, he was better without.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    Again, no one on here is... but that doesn't mean EVERYONE limits their list to their own generation or age. Some are historians of the game and will have older players on their list. You're a smart guy, you don't need the sarcasm. Not sure where the chip-on-the-shoulder is coming from. I think my first post saying **limiting my list - was fair. But if you're going to limit your list - only makes sense to provide a reason.

    Anyway, back to the actual discussion -
    Lidstrom should be considered a generational player. We haven't had such a complete Dman since in the NHL. 7 Norris Trophy's? If he's not considered due to his career offensive numbers, then his overall, complete game needs to be. As good as he was with the puck, he was better without.
    I think Lidstrom is by far the best defenseman there's been during my lifetime and I'm a huge fan of him. I don't know what it is, I just can't put a defenseman on my generational player list. And I have tremendous respect for defensemen as that was the position I played myself as well. One of those weird things I guess.

    That's also why I fought against the use of that term for Rasmus Dahlin. He can become the best defenseman we've seen since Lidstrom but generational? I just can't do it.

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    Personally, I love the debate and would use different categories and definitions, and include defensemen and goalies. You could increase the thresholds below I suppose if they are too wide for you but this is generally how I think about it.

    Generational: demonstrated elite performance (top 2-3 player in their F/D/G position) for a consecutive 10 years or more. Truly a short list.
    Elite: top 2-3 player in their position for 5+ years
    ------------------------------- (HoF line)
    Great: top 20 player in their position for 5+ years
    Good: top 50 player in their position for 3+ years

    Obviously, I place longevity and consistency as a marker of greatness. Hardware and awards doesn't matter as much to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    I think Lidstrom is by far the best defenseman there's been during my lifetime and I'm a huge fan of him. I don't know what it is, I just can't put a defenseman on my generational player list. And I have tremendous respect for defensemen as that was the position I played myself as well. One of those weird things I guess.
    I agree whole-heartedly with this.
    I, too, grew up playing mostly defense.
    Lidstrom's not on my "generational" list either - he was a perfect fit on the Wings - and as a defenseman, he did all those defensive things perfectly as well.
    I love Lidstrom though. He's my favourite D of my all-time viewing lifetime. Good mercy I loved watching him play.

    But... I think a lot of his hockey smarts and talent wouldn't have shined through on another team.

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    Further to Lidstrom & Others:
    There's a lot of ELITE players who wouldn't have shined through on other teams.
    For me, that's one way to disqualify them from "generational".

    re: Orr
    FWIW - it takes some time to go back and watch enough of Orr, it's worth it.
    Orr would have still been "generational", IMO, as a center. And that's why I include him.
    For Orr - his skating & vision was SO good - that he excelled with more ice surface to view.
    He could've been a center - but he was so good that he did everything a center could do from a "farther back" position.
    He was a "defenseman" by positional-terming & preference.
    But, if one didn't know where he started on face-offs, then they might've just assumed he was one of the best two-way centers of all-time.

    [fwiw, I think it's OK for somebody to not include a guy and qualify that they haven't seen enough footage. That's the mark of integrity. Too many people just throw somebody on a list based on what others have said.]

  13. #28
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    The way I see it, if a term or phrase is so open to interpretation that nobody can agree on it's meaning, then it's essentially useless. People are always arguing on here about whether Joe Blow is "elite" or not, and people yell yes and no back and forth ad nauseam, but everybody is using their own personal definition of the word and how it applies to hockey players. Pointless!

    I get that the intention of this thread was to try to get everybody on the same page about the meaning of this shiny new tag, but I don't see the point. Why is there a desire all of a sudden to give players this tag? Ooohhhh, he's better than good, he's better than the best, he's GENERATIONAL!

    That said, I do agree that if we must (for whatever reason) try to assign this tag to players, then I'm with Pengwin's method. Those generational chunks are stupid in their own right though, so it's still pointless in my eyes.

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    Default Re: Generational Players?

    Elias Pettersson is a generational player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid coming next. That's my entire list.

    Orr and Lidstrom are definitely the best defensemen of their eras. Maybe you can call them generational defensemen but they don't crack my generational player list.

    Maybe I'm being tough with my use of the term but I do think the term gets thrown around way too easily.
    Crosby but no Ovechkin? Ovy MAY be the best pure goal scorer EVER.

    Quote Originally Posted by 250ryan View Post
    Elias Pettersson is a generational player.
    I'm still having difficulties comprehending this generational tag on Pettersson. Since when does a generational player get drafted 5th overall, or play their first NHL game at 20.
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