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Thread: Toronto Maple Leafs

  1. #4921
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    So are Leafs fans willing to accept that Dubas got walked in Tavares negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Matthews negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Marner negotiations? Or are we still in denial over that? Imagine if the Leafs had another 3-4 mil in salary to give to better players.

  2. #4922
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    Hard to say when these are their stats over the deals:
    Marner - 134pts - 114gp, 8pts - 12 playoff games
    Matthews - 146pts - 122gp - Rocket Trophy, 11pts - 12playoff games
    Tavares - 198pts - 201GP, 8pts, 13 playoff games

    505pts in 474gps between the 3 for 78.086mill ($154,625.74/pt) which I think is pretty fair. I think Marner and Matthews has the same amount of production in playoff games as Stamkos points wise, and for reasons of twitter debates it's only about points in gps because that's what Twitter warriors like to use.

    They need to break through the top 3 though. And you look at JT and think he'll eventually head as a winger/center in the future. And with the cap not rising to the degree we all thought when they signed doesn't help.

    I'd say the contracts are worth it. But you're getting close to the time where you start to question the effectiveness of JT, and will Marner be there your next playoff series. Marner and Matthews were very close all series to getting the production, so people who just argue stats will not point to the chances they had. Matthews I think had like 30+ scoring chances this series to lead both teams. Something ridiculous. Hyman could have gotten them 10pts in game 7 and no one would have raised a thought about it.
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  3. #4923
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    So are Leafs fans willing to accept that Dubas got walked in Tavares negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Matthews negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Marner negotiations? Or are we still in denial over that? Imagine if the Leafs had another 3-4 mil in salary to give to better players.
    Im more curious if they are willing to admit that the issue in previous years past wasn't Freddie Andersen.
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  4. #4924
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    Hard to say when these are their stats over the deals:
    Marner - 134pts - 114gp, 8pts - 12 playoff games
    Matthews - 146pts - 122gp - Rocket Trophy, 11pts - 12playoff games
    Tavares - 198pts - 201GP, 8pts, 13 playoff games

    505pts in 474gps between the 3 for 78.086mill ($154,625.74/pt) which I think is pretty fair. I think Marner and Matthews has the same amount of production in playoff games as Stamkos points wise, and for reasons of twitter debates it's only about points in gps because that's what Twitter warriors like to use.

    They need to break through the top 3 though. And you look at JT and think he'll eventually head as a winger/center in the future. And with the cap not rising to the degree we all thought when they signed doesn't help.

    I'd say the contracts are worth it. But you're getting close to the time where you start to question the effectiveness of JT, and will Marner be there your next playoff series. Marner and Matthews were very close all series to getting the production, so people who just argue stats will not point to the chances they had. Matthews I think had like 30+ scoring chances this series to lead both teams. Something ridiculous. Hyman could have gotten them 10pts in game 7 and no one would have raised a thought about it.
    IMO, it's less about if they have earned their contacts since signing, and more about if they had earned those contracts at the time. Matthews and Marner were obviously overpays for what they had done, especially in the context of how few UFA years were bought. We can quibble as to whether or not Tavares was an overpay as a UFA deal, but the result was Matthews wanted more than Tavares (and they gave it to him) and Marner wanted to be close to Matthews (and they gave it to him). Compare to what even McDavid makes for 3 more bought UFA years, and compare what Draisaitl gives you compared to Marner, and they simply are overpayments, which were all born out of the contract they gave to Tavares.

  5. #4925
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    IMO, it's less about if they have earned their contacts since signing, and more about if they had earned those contracts at the time. Matthews and Marner were obviously overpays for what they had done, especially in the context of how few UFA years were bought. We can quibble as to whether or not Tavares was an overpay as a UFA deal, but the result was Matthews wanted more than Tavares (and they gave it to him) and Marner wanted to be close to Matthews (and they gave it to him). Compare to what even McDavid makes for 3 more bought UFA years, and compare what Draisaitl gives you compared to Marner, and they simply are overpayments, which were all born out of the contract they gave to Tavares.
    Well you were asking did Dubas get the right deal for Tavares. Which had a snowball effect on 2 players. I was saying I think they have overall lived up to the deals that were signed. I would then say if they lived up to the deals, then Dubas didn't get "walked on". IF you are arguing each got paid 1mill more, then you are arguing they got paid like 9% over what they should, which Dubas then makes up on other signings worth. Which, if we go by snowballing logic, he's getting Brodie, Muzzin, Campbell, Spezza all to sign because of the top 3 guys as a marketing tool to bring guys in to make up the difference.

    My point is, if we get into hypothetical "what ifs" you can go down a rabbit hole of "what ifs".

    FYI, Draisaitl was considered an overpayment when he signed, and still a bit questionable the 1st yr. His 2nd yr, when he was 23yrs old he exploded into making the deal a steal. The deal is one of the best in the league, if not the 2nd best (MacKinnon), but he grew into that, he didn't sign below average, he signed and it was a bit of an brow raiser to some highly opinionated posters
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  6. #4926
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    selfishly, im fine with toronto being out early so theyll be healthy and ready to go for next season. i do not think matthews and probably marner were healthy. i lost seguin to injury during last year's playoffs and ended up not keeping him since it was a limited keeper.

    Their big 3 arent overpaid and star players making star money has and always been good use of cap space. Tavares being out definitely made a difference as hes impossible to replace. its just unfortunate since it sounded like tavares couldve played in round 2. i wouldnt overreact since a montreal goalie has caused an existential crisis for multiple teams in the past decade haha

    i do still maintain that the leafs need a shutdown 3rd line centre. kerfoot is a fine player but he moves up and down the lineup too much to be considered the 3rd line C. Spezza could do it in a pinch but not for a full season. i expect hyman to get more money elsewhere as you cant really pay an elite role player 5m if youve got 3 other players making 10m+.
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  7. #4927
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Kerfoot showed he's a solid LW, and if he is that LW in the future I'm more than glad he's on the team. And ya, someone mentioned we didn't see Matthews shot the same, and wondered how healthy his wrist was again, didn't think of that until they said it.
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  8. #4928
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Marner was on the tee sheet today. I wonder when he booked his round.
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  9. #4929
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Definitely blow the team and management up...rebuild time, lol!
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by BCFelony View Post
    Marner was on the tee sheet today. I wonder when he booked his round.
    That's pretty normal.
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  11. #4931
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by BCFelony View Post
    Marner was on the tee sheet today. I wonder when he booked his round.
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  12. #4932
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    So are Leafs fans willing to accept that Dubas got walked in Tavares negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Matthews negotiations, which led to him getting walked in Marner negotiations? Or are we still in denial over that? Imagine if the Leafs had another 3-4 mil in salary to give to better players.
    Yes, looking back he should have signed M&M before signing JT. Listening to Carlo Coliacovo this morning, he brought up a good point. JT's numbers became the standard for Matthews which became the standard for Marner. In a perfect world Mathews could have been just under or close to $10M while Marner around $7.5-8.5M. But what's done is done. Having slept on it now, I do think they have to roll with what they've got. There's really no other option unless they are willing to deal Marner.
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  13. #4933
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    I've always said that signing Tavares was a huge mistake, especially at that price point, but the signing in general wasn't necessary. Leafs fans continue to argue with me that it was but I didn't see it at the time, and it hasn't got better.
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  14. #4934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    I've always said that signing Tavares was a huge mistake, especially at that price point, but the signing in general wasn't necessary. Leafs fans continue to argue with me that it was but I didn't see it at the time, and it hasn't got better.
    I guess the result of JT signing was the cast off of Kapanen, AJ, Brown, Zaitsev, and I feel like there's someone else (JvR left in FA). Maybe Kadri stays on the team because they would have lacked a 2nd C.

    Hyman - Matthews - Marner
    Brown - Kadri - Nylander
    Kapanen - XX - AJ

    I dunno how much better they really are without JT. But if you replace JT with a little lesser C, and a winger, but continue to make the trades they did it looks better prolly. Leafs don't get Kerfoot without JT signing likely, the Leafs make Rielly the captain, likely meaning they extend him, prolly overpay there.

    It's hindsight now, but I would agree the Leafs would likely do better with a true 2C+Winger for a total of 12mill than JT+Min winger. Maybe the Leafs sign JvR instead and that's a total botch of a contract.
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  15. #4935
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    Default Re: Toronto Maple Leafs

    There's no choice but to stay the course. We're locked in with MMT for the next 3 years. Nylander's contract at this point looks like a bargain.

    The only person I would trade to shore up the D is Tavares but his contract is unmovable now so it is what it is unfortunately.

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