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Thread: Ottawa Senators

  1. #2116
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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
    Phillips wasn't terrible last year. That's just hyperbole. He had a down year like everyone on the team. Again he was probably the best dman the other night and looks good next to Ceci. Whenever somebody says he is a 7th dman I just roll my eyes.

    I disagree about cowen, he already looks better and again it's only one game. He was pretty solid the other night, just a couple of poor plays which happens to everybody. His skating is much better and he looks like he can have a decent season. People really need to focus on a guys whole game, not just one or two plays where the other team scores.

    The d this the same because most are young and its a knee jerk reaction to change it based on this. They will only improve with every game. You just have to be patient. Which if you are like most Sens fans, you won't be and you will continue to have your whipping boys and engage in groupthink like Cowen sucks, neil sucks, phillips sucks. Etc.

    And it's also not the same because Methot isn't healthy right now. I am not the biggest fan but once he's back cowen can play with Ceci or gryba and everyone will be in a comfortable position.
    Seem to change your stance pretty quickly over "one game". This defence minus Karlsson is terrible and you can say a ton of excuses about youth and what not but at the end of the day they just aren't good. Cowen has looked like a trainwreck for more than he has looked good in his career, Phillips has experience but at this point in his career is not a top 5 defenceman and Gryba has looked pretty bad as well.

    If these guys had a lot of realistic upside and looked like they might achieve it then you can be optimistic but I have seen nothing to make me confident about this team's defence. Karlsson is one of if not the best Dman in the NHL and Ceci looks like he can be a top 4 defenceman but isn't there right now. Methot is a top 4 Dman but until he comes back the Senators are going to struggle big time on the back end.

    Wiercioch looks to finally be back in the lineup and should have a lot longer rope than guys like Cowen.
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
    Roster: 2 C, 2 RW, 2 LW, 3 F, 5 D, 2 G, 4 BN, 3IR
    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

  2. #2117
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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by sensfan15 View Post
    Seem to change your stance pretty quickly over "one game". This defence minus Karlsson is terrible and you can say a ton of excuses about youth and what not but at the end of the day they just aren't good. Cowen has looked like a trainwreck for more than he has looked good in his career, Phillips has experience but at this point in his career is not a top 5 defenceman and Gryba has looked pretty bad as well.

    If these guys had a lot of realistic upside and looked like they might achieve it then you can be optimistic but I have seen nothing to make me confident about this team's defence. Karlsson is one of if not the best Dman in the NHL and Ceci looks like he can be a top 4 defenceman but isn't there right now. Methot is a top 4 Dman but until he comes back the Senators are going to struggle big time on the back end.

    Wiercioch looks to finally be back in the lineup and should have a lot longer rope than guys like Cowen.
    What stance did I change? Phillips is a top 5 d for sure. He was one of the main reasons we won last night.

    I think we will be better with Methot but I still don't think we desperately need him long term. I like our d going forward even without him.

    Gryba has has looked fine. He is a bottom pairing dman and has played his role.

    i also think Ceci is virtually a top 4 right now and has a ton of upside. He's a gem on the backend even right now. Very poised for his age.

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
    What stance did I change? Phillips is a top 5 d for sure. He was one of the main reasons we won last night.

    I think we will be better with Methot but I still don't think we desperately need him long term. I like our d going forward even without him.

    Gryba has has looked fine. He is a bottom pairing dman and has played his role.

    i also think Ceci is virtually a top 4 right now and has a ton of upside. He's a gem on the backend even right now. Very poised for his age.
    That Cowen deserves to play and Wiercoch is not a top 4 Dman on this team. Phillips may be a top 5 D on this team but that is the scary thing. He is not a top 5 Dman on an above average team and probably not top 6 to be honest. While Ceci looks to be progressing well he is very young and is going to make a lot of mistakes young Dman will make. Methot is the team's 2nd best defenceman not sure how you can argue it. Cowen is a lost cause..
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
    Roster: 2 C, 2 RW, 2 LW, 3 F, 5 D, 2 G, 4 BN, 3IR
    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by sensfan15 View Post
    That Cowen deserves to play and Wiercoch is not a top 4 Dman on this team. Phillips may be a top 5 D on this team but that is the scary thing. He is not a top 5 Dman on an above average team and probably not top 6 to be honest. While Ceci looks to be progressing well he is very young and is going to make a lot of mistakes young Dman will make. Methot is the team's 2nd best defenceman not sure how you can argue it. Cowen is a lost cause..
    I think Cowen deserves to sit tomorrow, not forever. I don't think Wiercioch is top 4 at all., not yet. Cowen isn't a lost cause, he's at worst a bottom pairing NHL dman. I wouldn't mind trading him right now but I wouldn't mind just putting him on the bottom pair or with Ceci who he was projected to be with this year.,

    Phillips is definitely top 6 on any team. I'm sick of the ignorance when people talk about him. A team like boston wanted him for a reason. Guy had a bit of a down year last year but he's a leader, a physical presence, and know how to play the game.

    as for Methot he probably is the second best dman but I don't think we need him longterm at the kind of money he wants. The team really wasn't happpy with him last year and now he has a chronic back injury.

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    I also hope the people who think the Boro sining was stupid are eating some nice crow now after seeing him play. He's a stud 6-7

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
    I think Cowen deserves to sit tomorrow, not forever. I don't think Wiercioch is top 4 at all., not yet. Cowen isn't a lost cause, he's at worst a bottom pairing NHL dman. I wouldn't mind trading him right now but I wouldn't mind just putting him on the bottom pair or with Ceci who he was projected to be with this year.,

    Phillips is definitely top 6 on any team. I'm sick of the ignorance when people talk about him. A team like boston wanted him for a reason. Guy had a bit of a down year last year but he's a leader, a physical presence, and know how to play the game.

    as for Methot he probably is the second best dman but I don't think we need him longterm at the kind of money he wants. The team really wasn't happpy with him last year and now he has a chronic back injury.
    Cowen at worst is a player who shouldn't be in the lineup, which is looking like right now. If you can trade him for a 5th round pick I would do it, those 2 years of salary for a budget team like Ottawa could be spent elsewhere. Cowen severely lacks hockey sense and is always out of position. He actually isn't that bad in the offensive end but he is really slow at making decisions and that kills him in the defensive end leading to lots of turnovers and missed assignments.

    With all the analytics in hockey now you are going to see the Chris Philips's of the NHL being weeded out or at least having lesser roles. Being a leader is useless when you are not a good hockey player anymore. The reason he had a down year is because he is old as hell and when you get over 35 you are in a severe decline, which we are seeing. He's not magically going to get better and what you saw last year will only continue.

    This might be the only thing I agree with. Methot is a good hockey player but if they can get a decent return similar to the Boychuk trade I would move him and do it before another injury hits. The Sens aren't contending this year so finishing 12th in the East instead of 8th isn't a bad thing and probably a good thing with such a stacked draft.
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
    Roster: 2 C, 2 RW, 2 LW, 3 F, 5 D, 2 G, 4 BN, 3IR
    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Cowen looks like he isn't going to be in the lineup again. Also by his comments to the media he sounds just as lost as he looks on the ice and he doesn't think he has been playing that badly. At this point I'd trade him for a 6th round pick otherwise you are going to be stuck with that cap hit for another 2 years.
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
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    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    They don't care about cap hit.

    If you think they're gonna move Cowen for a 6th round pick you will be very, very disappointed.

    The exact same comments (and I mean the exact same) were said about Chara back in his early years. He won't become that but it just shows that nothing is set in stone.

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
    They don't care about cap hit.

    If you think they're gonna move Cowen for a 6th round pick you will be very, very disappointed.

    The exact same comments (and I mean the exact same) were said about Chara back in his early years. He won't become that but it just shows that nothing is set in stone.
    Well he makes 3.7 next year and 4.5 the year after and this owner cares A TON about how much money he has to pay so I don't understand how they don't care about that. I agree they won't move him for a 6th round pick but if they can get any value they should take it.

    Cowen has shown zero ability to adjust which is the scary thing. The issues about his positioning in the defensive zone are well documented and he continues to be lost. He seems to have no hockey sense which you can't just "teach". And when you can't make passes out of the Dzone (something Chara can do) then you are pretty much useless as a defenceman.
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
    Roster: 2 C, 2 RW, 2 LW, 3 F, 5 D, 2 G, 4 BN, 3IR
    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Cowen's only really played two full(-ish) NHL seasons. I think you have to give him at least a couple of years to come into his own. I know there is that whole contract thing, but I think that with players that size they take a little longer to grow into their bodies.
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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by sensfan15 View Post
    Well he makes 3.7 next year and 4.5 the year after and this owner cares A TON about how much money he has to pay so I don't understand how they don't care about that. I agree they won't move him for a 6th round pick but if they can get any value they should take it.

    Cowen has shown zero ability to adjust which is the scary thing. The issues about his positioning in the defensive zone are well documented and he continues to be lost. He seems to have no hockey sense which you can't just "teach". And when you can't make passes out of the Dzone (something Chara can do) then you are pretty much useless as a defenceman.
    the point is he couldn't before, the exact same criticisms that Cowen has had to hear were thrown at Chara as well. Chara was awful in his early years, literallythe same type of player as Cowen was last year. He couldn't skate, he didn't have offensive ability. He was mainly a fighter and a Matt Carkner type of dman. This was before he got to Ottawa. In fact Cowen was much better in his rookie year and was a much better prospect. If Chara wasn't so big he probably would've been given up on quickly. But he worked through it. Worked hard on fitness, defense, and offense.

    now maybe Cowen will be like him and will regain his ability if he moves to another team

    The guy is 23. If you trade him for nothing you will regret it. Luckily Murray still views Cowen as a key piece of he team going forward and he isn't stupid enough to trade a young guy they committed six+ years to for a late draft pick. Now I agree that if something valuable was icom ing back then I'd think about it, but I still don't want to trade him. I remember everyone shitting on him in his first world junior, then he next year he was dominant.

    I think the scratches and the coaching will be good for him. Let's see how he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Comish View Post
    Cowen's only really played two full(-ish) NHL seasons. I think you have to give him at least a couple of years to come into his own. I know there is that whole contract thing, but I think that with players that size they take a little longer to grow into their bodies.
    It's insane how many people just want to give up on a guy this young who like you said is in his third year basically. We get spoiled by guys like Karlsson who play to their fullest early on. The guy everyone thinks is amazing, Methot, started playing NHL at cowens age and wasn't amazing until about 26-27.

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
    the point is he couldn't before, the exact same criticisms that Cowen has had to hear were thrown at Chara as well. Chara was awful in his early years, literallythe same type of player as Cowen was last year. He couldn't skate, he didn't have offensive ability. He was mainly a fighter and a Matt Carkner type of dman. This was before he got to Ottawa. In fact Cowen was much better in his rookie year and was a much better prospect. If Chara wasn't so big he probably would've been given up on quickly. But he worked through it. Worked hard on fitness, defense, and offense.

    now maybe Cowen will be like him and will regain his ability if he moves to another team

    The guy is 23. If you trade him for nothing you will regret it. Luckily Murray still views Cowen as a key piece of he team going forward and he isn't stupid enough to trade a young guy they committed six+ years to for a late draft pick. Now I agree that if something valuable was icom ing back then I'd think about it, but I still don't want to trade him. I remember everyone shitting on him in his first world junior, then he next year he was dominant.

    I think the scratches and the coaching will be good for him. Let's see how he does.
    I agree 23 is young for a Dman (not so much a forward as peak is 25-26) but the thing that scares me with Cowen is his lack of hockey sense. Guys that look THIS bad usually don't just become amazing. The worst part is that he seems to neglect how bad he has played and his character seems to be pretty poor. They can keep him if they want but I don't want a guy like Wiercioch sitting because of it. Wiercioch has the higher realistic ceiling right now, so if they want Cowen in the lineup take out Boro or Gryba.

    I wouldn't pump Murray's tires with the moves he made this offseason. Signing Milan to that contract is a waste of resources and Legwan's role isn't much different than what Grant or Pageau could provide but for 6x the cost.
    20 Team Keeper (H2H, Keep 15)
    Roster: 2 C, 2 RW, 2 LW, 3 F, 5 D, 2 G, 4 BN, 3IR
    Catg: G, A, +/-, PPP, SOG, Sh%, H, Blk, W, GAA, Sv%, Saves, SO

    C: Craig Smith, Brock Nelson
    LW: Benn, Ryan, Andrew Ladd, Tanguay
    RW: Vanek, Saad, Hemsky, Mark Stone
    D:Yandle, Gardiner, Goligoski, Kulikov, Girardi, Daley
    G: Scneider, Anderson, Svedberg

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    I think it's harder for many of the big guys to learn how to fully use their bodies, we see it all the time with power forwards taking longer to develop and with big d-men it can sometimes take even longer. I think what happens a lot of the time is they get a little spoiled playing in the junior because their size is such a huge advantage, then they get to the pros and they're facing these shifty little speedster wingers and they don't know how to use their size to play smart positional D to offset that. It's a learning process. I think Cowen has shown quite a bit of promise, he's just raw and needs to work on his game. T

    The other thing to point out is that he's often paired with Karlsson who will pinch and circle down low which makes it harder on him on a giveaway or odd-man rush.

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    Default Re: Ottawa Senators

    Quote Originally Posted by sensfan15 View Post
    I agree 23 is young for a Dman (not so much a forward as peak is 25-26) but the thing that scares me with Cowen is his lack of hockey sense. Guys that look THIS bad usually don't just become amazing. The worst part is that he seems to neglect how bad he has played and his character seems to be pretty poor. They can keep him if they want but I don't want a guy like Wiercioch sitting because of it. Wiercioch has the higher realistic ceiling right now, so if they want Cowen in the lineup take out Boro or Gryba.

    I wouldn't pump Murray's tires with the moves he made this offseason. Signing Milan to that contract is a waste of resources and Legwan's role isn't much different than what Grant or Pageau could provide but for 6x the cost.
    disagree big time there. Legwand is a solid vet, can play every situation and has almost 1000 games in the league. He wanted to be here as well. Id take him over pageau and grant without a doubt. And it's not 6 times the cost, but even if it was, people complain that they don't spend money. That was an amazing signing and The Sens offseason was one of the best in recent memory. Hell it's likely Legwand is our second line centre very soon. I think you've been reading too many Sens blogs - having yet another young guy in the lineup rather than Legwand would not be good.

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