Eastern Conference: (2) Capitals vs. (4) Penguins

[playmaker26]

The Comish wrote:

sakic19 wrote:

Sid the Kid is just awesome, Pitsburgh has terrible wingers but he sure carried his team well. Gonchar is a warrior for playing.

Great comments sakic19. I couldn\'t agree more on both points. The talent level that Crosby displayed was way over the top.

That first goal in tonight\'s game, apart from setting the tone (first goal is kinda important:silly: ), was a sick display of talent. Taking the puck off his skate, onto his stick and into the net. Wow.

I think I\'m deveoping a man crush on El Sid, if he could just stop the complaining/whining I\'d be fully on board.:blush:

This is the reason why I think Sid is better. He\'s a playmaker who is playing with absolute shit for wingers. Most of his assists are great ones. Not trying to start a Crosby vs. AO comparison but Ovechkin can get some \"cheap\" assists because of the guys he plays with. Semin, Backstrom, Green, and company can make plays on their own. Ovechkin had 3 assists in Game 6 and I didn\'t think he had an \"Ovechkin-like\" game.

[mapletreemarty]

dbellan wrote:

Pretty horrible game 7, particularly for caps fans one would imagine, but this was an incredible series, one which really could have gone either way.

Props to the players and teams involved.

Hmmm two game 7\'s in a row the Caps come out flat.... Varlamov couldn\'t save them this time... PIT\'s offense is just a little better than the Rangers :P

[mapletreemarty]

sentium wrote:

I disagree This game was the most satisfying game for Wings fans in about a decade, apart from the Cup-clinching game in 1997.

As an Avs fan, I resent that post :P

[mapletreemarty]

The Comish wrote:

sakic19 wrote:

Sid the Kid is just awesome, Pitsburgh has terrible wingers but he sure carried his team well. Gonchar is a warrior for playing.

I think I\'m deveoping a man crush on El Sid, if he could just stop the complaining/whining I\'d be fully on board.:blush:

And he also has to shave, his playoff beard looks so pathetic, he looks like a pedophile.

[mister_mcgoo]

mapletreemarty wrote:

The Comish wrote:

sakic19 wrote:

Sid the Kid is just awesome, Pitsburgh has terrible wingers but he sure carried his team well. Gonchar is a warrior for playing.

I think I\'m deveoping a man crush on El Sid, if he could just stop the complaining/whining I\'d be fully on board.:blush:

And he also has to shave, his playoff beard looks so pathetic, he looks like a pedophile.

I KNOW, everytime I see him in interviews I think that...he looks like he lives in a van down by the river :lol:

[sakic19]

Last year Pittsburgh had the better overall team and went far, this year looking at it there not that good. The depth at wing is so subpar is ridculos. Guerin, Kunitz, Fedetenko, Dupuis, Satan etc.. Like that to me is a mix of very average players who are basically just playing their roles well.

I understand its hard to compare Crosby and Ovechkin but come on last year Ovechkin had the excuse of having a worse team, this year he had Semin,Backstrom,Green all having career years, the great leadership and talent of Federov, came off a 3rd place campaign in which they finished there realistically and not because of a division lead, PLUS had a hot goalie in Varlamov who was playing like Cam Ward did a few years back.

Finally I\'ll always bring up this point, SID is still younger than Ovechkin and in 2 years I think it\'ll begin to show what Crosby can do with abit more maturity and time to clean up his all around game.

[Dakkster]

playmaker26 wrote:

sentium wrote:

If you\'re making the argument that Green is very below average in his own end based on the postseason, then I\'m making the argument that Luongo is a very below goaltender based on the Chicago series.

For the last time, Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke. He\'s AT WORST average defensively.

Of course I\'m not just basing it on the postseason. He\'s not that great defensively, period.

He\'s either below average defensively or lazy. Either one is not good.

Wrong answer. I\'ll repeat myself: Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke.

I\'m talking goals against per SH minute, amount of SH minutes played, blocked shots, goals against per minute played, etc. You DO NOT get great stats in those areas over an 82 game season if you\'re not AT LEAST an average defenseman. You simply don\'t.

You can say \"below average defensively or lazy\" all you want, but I\'m backed up by the stats of the whole league over the entire 82 game regular season.

He was hurt in the playoffs and that is also a waaaaaay smaller sample size.

So for the last time: He\'s solid defensively. He\'s not great, but he\'s not below average. P-e-r-i-o-d.

[lanky]

dbellan wrote:

Pretty horrible game 7, particularly for caps fans one would imagine, but this was an incredible series, one which really could have gone either way.

Props to the players and teams involved.

great post. i agree wholeheartedly.

it\'s a shame the series ended on such a sour (ie not even close) note... because it really was a spectacular series.

I was thinking myself last night how a few bounces here or there and it could have been a completely different outcome (as three of the games went to overtime). But that\'s how it goes sometimes.

It\'s interesting... last night the commentators were really rubbing it in saying, \"the pittsburgh penguins have only defeated the capitals in regulation 1 time in their past 10 games\" (last night made it two). Shitty... but the penguins won when it mattered.

It\'s just a shame it wasn\'t a better close to the series.

[lanky]

sentium wrote:

Wrong answer. I\'ll repeat myself: Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke.

I\'m talking goals against per SH minute, amount of SH minutes played, blocked shots, goals against per minute played, etc. You DO NOT get great stats in those areas over an 82 game season if you\'re not AT LEAST an average defenseman. You simply don\'t.

You can say \"below average defensively or lazy\" all you want, but I\'m backed up by the stats of the whole league over the entire 82 game regular season.

He was hurt in the playoffs and that is also a waaaaaay smaller sample size.

So for the last time: He\'s solid defensively. He\'s not great, but he\'s not below average. P-e-r-i-o-d.

agreed. good post.

I guess we should just say that joe thornton is terrible offensively because he didn\'t show up in the playoffs. Nabokov isn\'t a good goalie. Neither is luongo.

playoffs mean nothing. guys are often playing hurt, and as sentium suggests, it is indeed a much smaller sample size.

Think about it this way: is jussi jokinen really that good? no... but he\'s having a tremendous playoffs.

Saying that mike green is bad defensively because of his showing in 14 playoff games is like saying jussi jokinen is a clutch, offensive stud. :blink:

[mapletreemarty]

lanky wrote:

sentium wrote:

Wrong answer. I\'ll repeat myself: Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke.

I\'m talking goals against per SH minute, amount of SH minutes played, blocked shots, goals against per minute played, etc. You DO NOT get great stats in those areas over an 82 game season if you\'re not AT LEAST an average defenseman. You simply don\'t.

You can say \"below average defensively or lazy\" all you want, but I\'m backed up by the stats of the whole league over the entire 82 game regular season.

He was hurt in the playoffs and that is also a waaaaaay smaller sample size.

So for the last time: He\'s solid defensively. He\'s not great, but he\'s not below average. P-e-r-i-o-d.

agreed. good post.

I guess we should just say that joe thornton is terrible offensively because he didn\'t show up in the playoffs. Nabokov isn\'t a good goalie. Neither is luongo.

playoffs mean nothing. guys are often playing hurt, and as sentium suggests, it is indeed a much smaller sample size.

Think about it this way: is jussi jokinen really that good? no... but he\'s having a tremendous playoffs.

Saying that mike green is bad defensively because of his showing in 14 playoff games is like saying jussi jokinen is a clutch, offensive stud. :blink:

I agree and disagree to a certain extent....

Yes the playoffs are a smaller sample size and so players shouldn\'t be deemed horrible players just because they don\'t produce in the post season.

However, small sample size or not, the postseason is when the games matter the most, and you don\'t have such a large margin of error like you do in the regular season where you play 82 games.

If you can\'t elevate your game, and play your best when the games are most important than take your stick and go home. These are pressure situations and yes there is more forgiveness to younger less experienced guys who need some seasoning, however someone like Joe Thornton. There are no more excuses really, you can\'t produce when it counts and your team needs you the most... period. He\'s not a clutch performer, he may as well be playing on non-playoff teams, so he can put up 100 pt. seasons and than start his summer in mid-April because the past few post seasons it looks like he\'s just out on the ice enjoying a public skate anyways.

[playmaker26]

sentium wrote:

playmaker26 wrote:

sentium wrote:

If you\'re making the argument that Green is very below average in his own end based on the postseason, then I\'m making the argument that Luongo is a very below goaltender based on the Chicago series.

For the last time, Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke. He\'s AT WORST average defensively.

Of course I\'m not just basing it on the postseason. He\'s not that great defensively, period.

He\'s either below average defensively or lazy. Either one is not good.

Wrong answer. I\'ll repeat myself: Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke.

I\'m talking goals against per SH minute, amount of SH minutes played, blocked shots, goals against per minute played, etc. You DO NOT get great stats in those areas over an 82 game season if you\'re not AT LEAST an average defenseman. You simply don\'t.

You can say \"below average defensively or lazy\" all you want, but I\'m backed up by the stats of the whole league over the entire 82 game regular season.

He was hurt in the playoffs and that is also a waaaaaay smaller sample size.

So for the last time: He\'s solid defensively. He\'s not great, but he\'s not below average. P-e-r-i-o-d.

Like I said, I\'m not basing it on the playoffs alone. But to say you can\'t put the playoffs into the argument is wrong. It\'s the toughest time of year and you need to pay attention to detail. Being hurt does not help at all and I commend him for playing through whatever injuries he had but the amount of turnovers he would have in his own zone are ridiculous. His man scored so many times this playoffs.

As for your \"stats\" that say he\'s a solid defensively. Those stats don\'t mean anything. Shorthanded time on ice? Green was 4th among defenseman ON HIS OWN TEAM in time. And 6th among defenseman ON HIS OWN TEAM if you include Alzner and Sloan who played 30 and 26 games respectively.

Blocked shots. He was 73rd among defenseman in that category. Dennis Seidenberg had 50 more blocked shots. Does that mean Seidenberg is so much better defensively? The answer is no.

Stats can be misleading. It\'s all we care about in fantasy hockey but you need to watch players to determine whether they are good at something or not. Green is an all-world talent on offense and it makes up for his defensive weaknesses. But there is no way you can say he is solid defensively based on a few stats.

[playmaker26]

mapletreemarty wrote:

lanky wrote:

sentium wrote:

Wrong answer. I\'ll repeat myself: Green is right up there with the rest of the Norris contenders as far as detailed defensive statistics go and over a 82 game season, that\'s not a fluke.

I\'m talking goals against per SH minute, amount of SH minutes played, blocked shots, goals against per minute played, etc. You DO NOT get great stats in those areas over an 82 game season if you\'re not AT LEAST an average defenseman. You simply don\'t.

You can say \"below average defensively or lazy\" all you want, but I\'m backed up by the stats of the whole league over the entire 82 game regular season.

He was hurt in the playoffs and that is also a waaaaaay smaller sample size.

So for the last time: He\'s solid defensively. He\'s not great, but he\'s not below average. P-e-r-i-o-d.

agreed. good post.

I guess we should just say that joe thornton is terrible offensively because he didn\'t show up in the playoffs. Nabokov isn\'t a good goalie. Neither is luongo.

playoffs mean nothing. guys are often playing hurt, and as sentium suggests, it is indeed a much smaller sample size.

Think about it this way: is jussi jokinen really that good? no... but he\'s having a tremendous playoffs.

Saying that mike green is bad defensively because of his showing in 14 playoff games is like saying jussi jokinen is a clutch, offensive stud. :blink:

I agree and disagree to a certain extent....

Yes the playoffs are a smaller sample size and so players shouldn\'t be deemed horrible players just because they don\'t produce in the post season.

However, small sample size or not, the postseason is when the games matter the most, and you don\'t have such a large margin of error like you do in the regular season where you play 82 games.

If you can\'t elevate your game, and play your best when the games are most important than take your stick and go home. These are pressure situations and yes there is more forgiveness to younger less experienced guys who need some seasoning, however someone like Joe Thornton. There are no more excuses really, you can\'t produce when it counts and your team needs you the most... period. He\'s not a clutch performer, he may as well be playing on non-playoff teams, so he can put up 100 pt. seasons and than start his summer in mid-April because the past few post seasons it looks like he\'s just out on the ice enjoying a public skate anyways.

Well said.

I\'m not basing my posts on his playoffs. It is a factor but it\'s not the sole reason of saying he is below average defensively.

So what is he\'s not good defensively? The guy put up 73 points in 68 games. That\'s pretty damn good and I\'d take that on my team any day.

[mapletreemarty]

Agreed on the Mike Green point...

Only 20 players put up a ppg or better this season, one of them was a D-man...Washington was fortunate enough to have 4 players on that list, at the end of the day, Mike Green is an offensive defensemen he gets paid the big bucks to jump into the rush and put pucks in the net. That\'s why you pair him with a stay at home guy, who can cover his ass when he charges in.

The key stat here is that even though over half of his pts. this year 38 of 73 came on the PP he still managed to put up a +24 rating in 68 games, pro rated over 82 games that\'s a +29...he would be tied for 9th in the NHL... if his defense was so horrible it would be a little more reflected in his +/- especially based on how much of his production is on the PP.

[andrewklassen]

mapletreemarty wrote:

Hmmm two game 7\'s in a row the Caps come out flat.... Varlamov couldn\'t save them this time... PIT\'s offense is just a little better than the Rangers :P

I was waiting for someone to mention this is exactly the same CAPS team that showed up in game 7 against the RANGERS.

WAS has some amazing talent, but most of it plays an individualistic style of game...hogging the puck, always looking to shoot, and trying to deke and weave it\'s way through 3 defenders to generate a scoring opportunity.

PIT won b/c Crosby uses his linemates better than AO does and as a whole PIT plays a better \'team\' game. Crosby sucks 2 defenders towards him and then dishes to Guerin = goal. If AO would diversify his game [even a little] Kozlov would be a 60 point player over the course of a season.

Great series, the better team won.

[Dakkster]

Some comparables.

Name - Average SH TOI - SHG Against per 60 minutes

Dan Boyle - 2:06 - 5.67
Zdeno Chara - 3:17 - 6.06
Mike Green - 2:26 - 2.50
Duncan Keith - 3:47 - 6.72
Nicklas Lidstrom - 3:29 - 7.98
Brian Rafalski - 1:14 - 8.04
Mark Streit - 2:33 - 7.12
Dennis Wideman - 2:53 - 6.14
Shea Weber - 1:37 - 4.14

This is from the end of March. Again, you DO NOT play almost a full season and put up respectable defensive numbers unless you\'re at least average defensively. And you most certainly do not average 2.5 shorthanded goals against per 60 minutes if you\'re lazy or below average defensively through 144 minutes of shorthanded play. None of the other Norris candidates even come close to that.

Check out http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=621941 if you want to look at some more numbers. Sure, he doesn\'t match guys like Chara, Keith or Lidstrom defensively, but he\'s at least average. To say that he\'s bad defensively (when he\'s not hurt, if you want a qualifier for the playoffs) is patently false.